Blue Note Tone Poet Series >>> Country = Worldwide

Hi.

This short forum (I hope) only to determinate the Country of the Blue Note Tone Poet Series: once for all.
The series is generally edited as US, but lately someone is starting to enter Worldwide.

Now: I could be agree with Worldwide since the moment the Series is finally distributed everywhere at the same date of the official Blue Note's line-up - per each title (in the beginning it was not).
Starting from 2022, I see the series is distributed quickly and with the same capillarity of the Blue Note Classic Vinyl Series (that's Worldwide).

So, do we want to fix the country to Worldwide not to create misunderstandings in submissions? Thank you all.
Pinging someone if interested.

christofchristof

The 'Worldwide' country designation was added to the submission form and announced by as worldwide as they legally can distribute".

As a record company and copyright entity it seems Blue Note Classic Vinyl Series'.

Unless there are pressing plant differences coupled with regional distribution distinctions stated on a given release, it seems likely that many of the 'Blue Note Tone Poet Series' are Worldwide by DTF's definition.

All of this assumes that a given release is available as a non-import in a diverse range of markets / regions / territories.

Edited to add last sentence
Edited typos: I swear this system adds random letters or maybe too long looking at CD booklet small print.

As they all appear to have main cat# as the US Bxxxxxxxx-xx type then I would say US is fine.
I think worldwide could end up being the new Europe debate though.

Cl0ver
cat# as the US Bxxxxxxxx-xx type then I would say US is fine

Ok. So, for example what about these? >> Duke Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins - Duke Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins
and John Coltrane And Johnny Hartman - John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman

Sounds good to me, for the releases that qualify. I think worldwide distribution was one of the main goals of the Tone Poet and BN80 series from the beginning, with Blue Note and it’s global parent UMG taking over the high-quality reissues in a similar vein from the US-based Music Matters.

Thanks jooprm for facilitating this discussion.

DasBosun
seems likely that many of the 'Blue Note Tone Poet Series' are Worldwide by DTF's definition

agree

rxcory
Thanks jooprm for facilitating this discussion

you're welcome

jooprm
Ok. So, for example what about these? >> Duke Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins - Duke Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins
and John Coltrane And Johnny Hartman - John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman

To be honest I'm happy if Worldwide is chosen. To be honest most of the US based releases go Worldwide so where does one stop.
To be honest Country, styles & multiple Mould SID's have little interset to me so I just go with the flow on those.
I'm more interested in the music, performers etc.
However we are all not the same, thankfully. The trend here is Worldwide so will not go against it.
Ciao

Cl0ver
To be honest most of the US based releases go Worldwide so where does one stop.

Cl0ver
The trend here is Worldwide

That's true my friend. Eventually the concept of globalization / Worldwide will flatten everything. For this reason, I once suggested to insert another drop-down menu with the insertion of the country of origin referring to the press.
But let's talk about science fiction 😄

I think worldwide is probably more accurate. These are made available internationally by Universal divisions and they are created for that purpose, so +1 to worldwide.

Opdiner
created for that purpose, so +1 to worldwide.

Thank you 👍

jooprm
But let's talk about science fiction 😄

Just going off the subject. I often believed that everything was made underground by aliens (as from space, in case someone misreads and cancels me) and humans never make anything.

OK back to business. I've been in the brainwashing machine.

so +1 to worldwide.

Cl0ver
everything was made underground by aliens

Only Klingonians and Romulans will save us 👽
Thanks for voting. So, WORLDWIDE recap:
+1 DasBosun
+1 jooprm
+1 rxcory
+1 Opdiner
+1 Cl0ver

+1 for worldwide given the evidence presented

WORLDWIDE recap:
+1 DasBosun
+1 jooprm
+1 rxcory
+1 Opdiner
+1 Cl0ver
+1 GentleSenator

+1 for worldwide. Nicely presented rationale by all. Tagging L3Nola who enters quite a few Blue Note LPs for his 2 cents.

Opdiner
I think worldwide is probably more accurate. These are made available internationally by Universal divisions and they are created for that purpose, so +1 to worldwide.

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but does this mean most Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases are now Worldwide?

berothbr
most Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases are now Worldwide?

It would seem so. Another example I mentioned is the Acoustic Sounds Series. Releases are now simultaneous and everywhere. At least here in Europe as well as in the United States. But I also imagine Canada, Japan ...

jmehrlich
+1 for worldwide. Nicely presented rationale by all. Tagging L3Nola who enters quite a few Blue Note LPs for his 2 cents.

Thanks, jmehrlich I don't have any issue with Worldwide for the Tone Poets. But I think it does open a can of worms for classic pre-Liberty Blue Notes that had no international licensing agreements to press them in other countries. They were pressed in the US and simply exported. Not sure if this would classify them as "Worldwide" based on the info above, and I would imagine the forum would go nuts about it. Probably shouldn't have even brought that up, but I did. I think Discogs should have left well enough alone or maybe just said this applies only to releases from 2021 going forward or something like that.

But this is only one alien's opinion.

L3Nola
They were pressed in the US and simply exported

No problem. We're talking about where releases are marketed / distributed (not pressed). We keep in mind the guidelines as per RSG §7.1.1 and RSG §7.1.2

WORLDWIDE update:
+1 DasBosun
+1 jooprm
+1 rxcory
+1 Opdiner
+1 Cl0ver
+1 GentleSenator
+1 jmehrlich
+1 L3Nola

berothbr
is there any reason..........?

What do you mean exactly?
There is no reason to handle the two differently. Blue Note Classic Vinyl Series is Worldwide for sure. Pressed in Europe and distributed worldwide by Universal (Int. Music B.V.).
While about the Tone Poet Series many of us had a doubt. At the beginning of the commercialization, it was difficult to find them everywhere (as indicated in the line-up of the official Blue Note website too). But as I said above, from mid-2021, distribution is much smoother and more immediate. For this reason I opened the thread.
I own all the Tone Poet titles and have always edited those as US. But I think it is more appropriate to edit them as Worldwide. I get the Tone Poet Series in the same date of the releases here (EU > Italy, and so on) as in US.
More simply.

berothbr
OpdinerI think worldwide is probably more accurate. These are made available internationally by Universal divisions and they are created for that purpose, so +1 to worldwide.Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but does this mean most Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases are now Worldwide?

No, that’s the US domestic distribution division as far as I am aware but there is no doubt these Blue Note releases are also put into the global domestic Universal system as you find them everywhere.

Is there any evidence that these records were distributed worldwide ? I don't see how the quote from staff can be used as a justification for this.

"You can find them everywhere" Really ?

jooprm
distributed worldwide by Universal (Int. Music B.V.).

How do you know this company distributes worldwide ? Are they even a distributor ?

jweijde
How do you know this company distributes worldwide ? Are they even a distributor ?

referred to the Classic Series distributed worldwide. Some doubt on this?

Tone Poet is distributed by Universal Music Enterprises

jooprm
referred to the Classic Series distributed worldwide. Some doubt on this?

You mean this company Universal International Music B.V. referred to it that way ? Where did they do so ?

jweijde I don’t see other Companies on Classic Series. But it’s clear that’s worldwide since the moment it is distributed and marketed at the same time everywhere. If not, you can open another thread on this.

Here the topic concerns the Tone Poet Series.
So, you can vote YES, NO or I DON’T KNOW. Thanks.

jweijde
Is there any evidence that these records were distributed worldwide ? I don't see how the quote from staff can be used as a justification for this.

"You can find them everywhere" Really ?

jooprmdistributed worldwide by Universal (Int. Music B.V.).

How do you know this company distributes worldwide ? Are they even a distributor ?

Yes really. Perhaps you don't travel but I do and spend a lot of time in record shops. They're all over the world and intentionally so. This is precisely how the major label model works and is designed to work now. Centrally manufactured stock created by the entity tasked with doing so by the multinational. These are then released domestically by individual OpCos in each territory. I've done it. I also get release data from Universal as I have ongoing licensing deals with them. These are created and marketed by Universal as global domestic releases.

Keen to see your evidence contrary to that. Maybe the Australian pressings of these Blue Note releases found in the Australian Universal catalogue?

I was just curious if there's any external evidence available that these were indeed "distributed and marketed at the same time everywhere" as is claimed here. With this information not being on the releases, it's not a strange question to ask. What's "everywhere" in this case anyway ?

Opdiner
Keen to see your evidence contrary to that.

It is up to people that make claims about something that is not on releases to provide evidence for those claims. That's why I'm asking this question.

God, we have worked through this over and over across the years. Everywhere is everywhere UMG have national divisions and where they have rights. These go into what is an incredibly fine tuned and efficient machine which means that instead of having to create ten physical editions they can create just one or two and service the planet with these. It's how it works. But you already knew that.

jweijde
It is up to people that make claims about something that is not on releases to provide evidence for those claims

According to your thinking, you question any country field on Discogs. Let's leave all blank?

Opdiner
God, we have worked through this over and over across the years

True. I know something about it, right? 😅

+1 Worlwide

WORLDWIDE update:
+1 DasBosun
+1 jooprm
+1 rxcory
+1 Opdiner
+1 Cl0ver
+1 GentleSenator
+1 jmehrlich
+1 L3Nola
+1 Peperoni1979

Opdiner
They're all over the world and intentionally so.

jweijde
I was just curious if there's any external evidence available that these were indeed "distributed and marketed at the same time everywhere" as is claimed here.

I have similar questions. What I don't understand is why there's variability with the country when the Terry Callier - What Color Is Love
I know these are available globally, but if the distr. info is the same, shouldn't the country be the same?

Probably. I know the Mingus is definitely worldwide.

Opdiner
Probably. I know the Mingus is definitely worldwide.

But what are we basing this off of? Availability doesn’t seem like a reliable factor and diverges from ‘as on release.’

berothbr
But what are we basing this off of?

I think you are questioning two basic rules of editing Country as per RSG §7.1.1 and RSG §7.1.2.
In particular:
"Country" refers to the country of origin (the market) of the release. Discovering the country can be very easy or quite obscure. For small labels, they will usually be based, and released, in the same country. Larger labels or labels with licensing deals overseas are harder, but the country should always be the place the release was sold and distributed.

And I emphasize "sold and distributed". IMO = Worldwide (the market).

jooprm
Larger labels or labels with licensing deals overseas are harder, but the country should always be the place the release was sold and distributed.

Yes, but what is the factual basis for this? You keep restating that it was sold and distributed worldwide, but what facts are there to this statement? This is what jweijde asked and I agree with this question. I don’t think store availability is a reliable method of answering this question when it involves an entire series.

berothbr
Yes, but what is the factual basis for this?

I think this is not just about this particular series. I can also give the examples of the Blue Note Classic Series, the Blue Note 75 Anniversary (about 2014), the Blue Note 80 Anniversary (currently in progress), the Acoustic Sounds Series (starting from 2020 and currently in progress) and others (Contemporary by Craft ? MOFI ?...).

Here we are talking about Universal (declined in its several functions and offices / divisions present everywhere) which publishes the release of a product with a precise date and valid for everyone. In fact, these are now produced regularly and simultaneously distributed everywhere.

Id est:
when I see something like this Tone Poet line-up
or Classic Vinyl Reissue Series line-up
or Blue Note Records’ 80th Anniversary line-up
on the Blue Note official website with the Blue Note trademark acquired by Universal / UMe etc... I think they are the most striking cases to attribute the worldwide edit as country. The same goes for Acoustic Sounds Series.

Also, it seemed to me that you were talking about catalog numbers.
Well, when I see cat # UMe as Bxxxxxxx-01, 0060xxxxxxxxxx paired with Blue Note BST yyyyy or Pacific Jazz and again at Verve Records Vx-yyyy (as per Acoustic Sounds / Tone Poet / 80 Series and so on...), the use of editing worldwide makes even more sense to me.

jweijde ...and consider that I have never agreed with the Country field which indicates the distribution or the market. I have always felt that it should follow the country of pressing / manufacture. That way I know exactly where a record was produced and pressed without going to read the whole LCCN area.
I don't care about the distribution. If I want it, I order it online. I still have to import it anyway (with taxes if outside EU or...)

Looking for and want a record printed in Japan? I see it immediately in the main list. Do I want it American? German? Italian? Swedish? The same.

Instead I find myself an American series conceived in the States, mastered by Kevin Gray in the States but printed in : but ed / marked worldwide. Or conceived in the States, mastered in the States and pressed in the States but ed worldwide. Over, I find myself a record I think is American but pressed in the Czech Republic. Sometimes the quality is not the same.
Well, if I don't see the RTI in the LCCN, I'll never know where the pressing comes from. This bothers me.
We know it, but many don't.

But here I have to follow the rules, like it or not.
It would be a perfect world if you could put two drop-down menus in Discogs UI: one for the country / market and one for the pressing: US! Japan! Sweden! ... Holland! (like the good old Philips 70s).
This way I would find exactly what I am looking for and want.

berothbr
jooprmLarger labels or labels with licensing deals overseas are harder, but the country should always be the place the release was sold and distributed.Yes, but what is the factual basis for this? You keep restating that it was sold and distributed worldwide, but what facts are there to this statement? This is what jweijde asked and I agree with this question. I don’t think store availability is a reliable method of answering this question when it involves an entire series.

The facts basis is that these are regularly offered for sale after release by local Universal operations. All sales marketing is done online these days of course, the days of a sales rep in a store are long gone but I still get e-sales sheets as a courtesy from both Australia and New Zealand and these always appear. You order locally and they are delivered from regional warehouses as domestic releases.

I’ve also got pretty decent s in UMG at high levels and I’ve discussed their networks and systems. Global is the default now unless there are rights of contractual issues. If you see just one pressing of a release, it’s global (if you see two, one is usually for North America and the other ROW). This especially applies to catalogue things like the Blue Note and Impulse releases. But, as above, we’ve discussed all this many times. The obvious question too, is why would you think that UMG would not release things like this that they have global rights to in all their territories? It makes no sense.

Opdiner
The facts basis is that these are regularly offered for sale after release by local Universal operations.

I hope it goes without saying that I don't doubt you at all, but surely we can do better than your personal assurance to document the country as worldwide for an entire series.

jooprm
I think this is not just about this particular series.

I agree. All of these recent Blue Note series seem comparable.

Let’s throw a little bit of common sense in here then. Why would you think that these would not be released around the world? Why on earth would aggressively multi-national Universal decide to break their business model and make them unavailable in countries where they obviously would and do sell? It makes no sense at all. Couple that with the fact these are aggressively marketed online to the world via various Universal websites and there seems to be no evidence they are US only.

The physical business model is centred around making as few editions as possible available in every country where they can (which is the world less North Korea mainly, but even there they are covered by the Korean branch, just that the government block them). These are centrally manufactured by either UME (this) in the US or Universal Music International BV in Europe and then sold via their global sites and their 22 regional divisions. To argue that these are not global you’d have to say that either they don’t have global rights, or it’s an edition for a specific regional customer like a store or magazine, or there is another pressing used to cover the world beyond the US. I can’t see one.

Edit: the most mainstream store in Australia. They have a whole page devoted to this series https://www.jbhifi.com.au/collections/blue-note-records-tone-poet-vinyl-series and a logo advertising it on the release pages https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/vinyl-tyner-mccoy-tender-moments-vinyl-reissue-lp?queryID=8184402edb142d28ac5b5da8e21111f0&objectID=523947

Opdiner
Why would you think that these would not be released around the world?

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing that these are or are not worldwide. What I am arguing for is that if we are going to mass edit an entire series based on external info, then we need to document it properly because 'Worldwide' is not found on any of the releases (usually, the only country info seems to be for the UMG Recordings, Inc. address in Hollywood, CA).

The only reason I'm making a point of it is because this same logic should apply to Blue Note Classic Vinyl Series and a bunch of other releases with the same distributor.

Edit:
Here's another one: Blue Note 80 Vinyl Reissue Series

berothbr
Here's another one: Blue Note 80 Vinyl Reissue Series

In fact, this series is also worldwide. USA & Europe means nothing.
You will not find written in any release of the database "distributed worldwide" or just "worldwide".
So, after so much effort, why did we have it included in the UI by the Staff?
Did you prefer the blank field?

jooprm
You will not find written in any release of the database "distributed worldwide" or just "worldwide".

Exactly. So if Worldwide is not on the release, then we have to follow RSG §1.1.2 and document that info properly.

jooprm
So, after so much effort, why did we have it included in the UI by the Staff?

I just think we have to be factual with this tag and would like to see it used thoughtfully rather than assigned arbitrarily based on subjective observations about online retail availability.

berothbr
about online retail availability

berothbr we are in 2022. How is it not wolrdwide a product (not just records) that is distributed, released and retailed on the same day everywhere? USA, Europe, AUS / NZ, Japan, South America, Canada, China, Africa ..

Look at these: Blue World marked US.
(Oh my God. release then someone will explain to me what the hell is '150g' ...😂😂)

Over: Live Made in the US distributed only in USA.
(Some sellers still don't know there are 2 releases: half of the sellers certainly used the wrong sub for the sale of their records and will receive some complaints..)

All considered, then I am right with my theory. Should the Country field be blank - worldwide - or deleted - (everything is flattened and globalized by now) and replaced / doubled with the "pressing" field?

...and consider that Foné' records / masters / cuts the laquers in Italy, prints in , Italy or Japan, presses in , italy or Japan and distributes worldwide through local distributors (see list above). Exactly like Universal for Blue Note, Impulse, Verve .. or maybe the whole Acoustic Sounds series? Probably yes.
My head is spinning 😅
Goodnight.

berothbr
You're missing the point. I'm not arguing that these are or are not worldwide. What I am arguing for is that if we are going to mass edit an entire series based on external info, then we need to document it properly because 'Worldwide' is not found on any of the releases (usually, the only country info seems to be for the UMG Recordings, Inc. address in Hollywood, CA).

Honestly, I think you are missing the point and the notion that we have to use RSG §1.1.2 on every release is absurd. We have discussed this business model god knows how many times over the years and anyone reasonably active in the database has a grasp on how it works (and has worked for two decades now especially on vinyl but now on all physical). They don't need to write "Worldwide" on the cover FFS. Why on earth would they? Can you point to pressings of these from Singapore, Australia, Israel, China? Honestly, I think you are arguing red is blue for the sake of it.

jooprm
berothbr we are in 2022. How is it not wolrdwide a product (not just records) that is distributed, released and retailed on the same day everywhere? USA, Europe, AUS / NZ, Japan, South America, Canada, China, Africa ..

Precisely. Global has been the major record company default for most of this century. EMI and Warners drove it in the last decades of the 20th Century and it became the default in the 21st driven in a major way by the arrival of the monolith that is UMG. You can assume that pretty much everything, unless there are rights restrictions or regional editions as above (ie. unique editions for North America and/or Japan) issued by UMG, WMG, Sony and BMG are global editions. Do we really have to evoke 1.1.2 and list evidence on thousands of releases each time?

Opdiner
Do we really have to evoke 1.1.2 and list evidence on thousands of releases each time?

This is where I’m coming from. When I want to figure out the country, I look to the distr. info. Currently, there are like 5000+ Universal Music Enterprises releases. All of these Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases are not Worldwide, right? If all of these are not Worldwide, then how are we determining what qualifies as Worldwide and vice versa? Similarly, how can 2 releases with the same distr. info have different countries?

berothbr
how are we determining what qualifies as Worldwide and vice versa?

So now then, when do you think a release can be edited as Worldwide? An example? At least one.
Because from how I read and understand, you really question the Worldwide function / option

jooprm
Because from how I read and understand, you really question the Worldwide function / option

You seem to be repeatedly misunderstanding me, so I guess I'm not communicating effectively. All of my questions above were not rhetorical — I was genuinely asking those questions because I do not know the answer and want to hear what other s have to say about it.

berothbr
what other s have to say about it.

ok, let's wait for more opinions

berothbr
Currently, there are like 5000+ Universal Music Enterprises releases. All of these Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases are not Worldwide, right?

This may help:

"With the acquisition, UMG says that its global catalog company Universal Music Enterprises (UMe)"

They should be deemed worldwide unless there is either another version (usually from Universal International Music BV) or another reason we can identify.

https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/universal-buys-frank-zappa-recordings-song-catalog-and-complete-contents-of-the-vault-housing-1000-hours-of-film-and-video/

Opdiner
They should be deemed worldwide unless there is either another version (usually from Universal International Music BV) or another reason we can identify.

Are you're saying Mini Mansions - Guy Walks Into A Bar... should be Worldwide instead of US?
Is this for all Universal Music Enterprises distributed releases or is there a time restriction?

No, because there is a version marked Europe, which would actually be the worldwide aside from the USA edition. I’ve already covered that as above.

They have been doing this for vinyl editions for two decades.

Bumping for some more input... seems prudent to change the country for the 60+ releases in the Blue Note Tone Poet Series ...

Thoughts?

GentleSenator
Bumping for some more input... seems prudent to change the country for the 60+ releases in the Blue Note Tone Poet Series ...

Yes, it is. Thank you.
I tried with Contemporary Records Acoustic Sounds Series. What else.
+1
+1
+1

Yeah, plus one to this.

Agree, plus one to this.

Aside from some spirited debate it does seem that most folks agree to the update.

Aside from some spirited debate it does seem that most folks agree to the update.

GentleSenator
most folks agree to the update.

I would say all but two. Majority win?

jooprm
GentleSenatormost folks agree to the update.
I would say all but two. Majority win?

want to make sure we're talking about the entire series and not just the 2022 and beyond?

GentleSenator
want to make sure we're talking about the entire series and not just the 2022 and beyond?

I would say the whole series. There was some difficulty with simultaneous delivery at the beginning. But I wouldn't make a distinction between the first and the last year. Subtleties. Let's not complicate things further :-)

jooprm
GentleSenatorwant to make sure we're talking about the entire series and not just the 2022 and beyond?
I would say the whole series. There was some difficulty with simultaneous delivery at the beginning. But I wouldn't make a distinction between the first and the last year. Subtleties. Let's not complicate things further :-)

let's do this!

GentleSenator
let's do this!

edit 👍

GentleSenator
Bumping for some more input... seems prudent to change the country for the 60+ releases in the Blue Note Tone Poet Series ...

Thoughts?

Bit late, but fully this

Thanks to all for sorting this.

Done. Thanks all & jooprm.

Thanks all + Opdiner for 👍