Common runout groove etchings: how to list them (Version 8)

Welcome to the Master List of runout information - version 8

This thread serves as discussion forum for cutting / mastering / plating engineers, studios, pressing plants and other manufacturing identifiers. The reference lists with the identified etchings are located in a private group. The former long list has been divided into several lists for better accessibility (e.g. with Chrome browsers).

Part One:
Guidance and how-to read the lists.

Cool, new version.

Excellent, bookmarking.

Thanks, I hate it.

Was so easy to search one string and find it in any section before. Oh well, can't make everyone happy, kudos to you for trying though sebfact.

Hi Seb and thanks again for all your work on this!

Just found out that this one:
RPM ### or RPM ###-######
S, H, or HS? S
Add a company: Pressed By - RPM Record Pressing
Example: Kjell Vidars - 7 has the wrong example (used for the plant above in that listing)

Still wondering if anyone know anything about >S< (and >1< though it's scratched out in my example) on late 80's Alsdorf releases?

Also, got a list going of random (?) Etched Number + letter combinations present on 1980's Alsdorf pressings. If anyone got any additons, please tell me & I'll add them:

https://www.discogs.sie.com/lists/Number-letter-Alsdorf/550317

sebfact
Have created this, plus VPMF (Masterfonics), VPRR (Randy's Roost) and VPUS (United Sound). No evidence yet for VAL or VPW.

VAL is for Woodland Mastering (as indicated by runout info for 45s with these prefixes I own).

Thanks for organising this.

I'll repeat my old questions:

Runouts that need to be ID'd:

From Various - Beat Dimensions Vol.2
http://imgur.com/a/KGtw2

From Poo-Bah Records pressings

From Julien Grandjean

From Blissed Out - Secrets
https://imgur.com/a/d0lPZmp possibly "K Beyer"

From Lorn (2) - Remnant
Side A https://imgur.com/a/QLtOvIQ
Side B One-Handed Music vinyl

if anyone can help to ID those I'd be super happy :>

This one is not yet in the list I think:
JD (symbol combining J and D, see image on page): Jack Davis (3)

Excellent work here and thanks for your time and toil sebfact!

I have noticed that there is a time gap (from 05/2005 until late/2015) regarding the vinyl pressings of the German '320' pressing plant.

According to the Master List, Universal M & L, pressed vinyls until May 2005. Its successor started pressing vinyl in late 2015 (as per its profile).

In the runouts of Cat Stevens - Mona Bone Jakon (released in 12/2013) there is the number '320'.
Same with Cat Stevens - Teaser And The Firecat ( released on 12 January 2015, as per https://store.udiscovermusic.com/*/*/Teaser-The-Firecat/2NWI0000000 ).

Which pressing plant eventually could be added to the above releases?

cheebacheebakid
Thanks, I hate it.

Try the full list ;-)

Loanesloan
has the wrong example (used for the plant above in that listing)

Corrected, thanks for spotting.

peterh100
VAL is for Greg Lee Processing and VPW for Woodland Mastering (as indicated by runout info for 45s with these prefixes I own).

Please add examples, thanks.

peterh100
JD (symbol combining J and D, see image on page): Jack Davis (3)

Now added, thanks.

tzes666
I have noticed that there is a time gap (from 05/2005 until late/2015) regarding the vinyl pressings of the German '320' pressing plant.

The plant was sold to EDC, so all 320 that appear in the runouts after 2005 were pressed from lacquers/ masters created by any of the predecessor plants. Which one is difficult to tell. For the Cat Stevens Mona Bone Jakon one, this could even date back to 1970, when pressed by the Deutsche Grammophon plant. EDC did not use 320 for their cuts.

sebfact
Try the full list ;-)

D'oh! Retracting and adding more super kudos since maintaining both the full and the segmented are double the work.

Hopefully this does something to work around the chrome issue until they fit it.

Great work, as always!!

sebfact
peterh100VAL is for Greg Lee Processing and VPW for Woodland Mastering (as indicated by runout info for 45s with these prefixes I own).Please add examples, thanks.

Examples:
VAL: Don't Mess With My Man / Hip Shakin' Mama
VPW: Tomorrow You Won't Be My Woman Anymore / I've Never Had A Thing That Ain't Been Used

sebfact
EDC did not use 320 for their cuts.

Thank you very much for the clarification.

Perhaps 'Kdisc CH' should be 'ch', as in the image and description. The few I've seen are lower case cursive 'ch'.
Thank you for maintaining this resource.

peterh100
VAL: Don't Mess With My Man / Hip Shakin' Mama
VPW: Tomorrow You Won't Be My Woman Anymore / I've Never Had A Thing That Ain't Been Used

Added to the master list - created a Ville Platte sub-section.

okatie_john
Perhaps 'Kdisc CH' should be 'ch',

Changed, thanks.

Hello. I don't see this anywhere, so it may need to be added. Stamped "Manufactured in " which is a pressing from Teldec-Press GmbH. Thanks!

Granolla
I don't see this anywhere, so it may need to be added. Stamped "Manufactured in " which is a pressing from Teldec-Press GmbH.

I think that hasn't been added because it's not unique to Teldec. But no doubt seb can tell us for certain.

sebfact
The former long list has been divided into several lists for better accessibility

all parts bookmarked ! one more time thank you for you to have taken care about this, seb’ 👍🏻

about ‘CSM’ in my last post, i was thinking it was unknown before, like a different etching standing for trailoff !

do you think we have to correct the run-outs of these sebfact, or... ?

maybe a few works more are needed, since i also have noticed sometimes the s are listing ‘C / M’ as well, instead of ‘C⎰M’ in the run-outs fields... and maybe, Columbia Records Pressing Plant, Santa Maria’s catalog has to be checked, too ! don’t know exactly... it’s about more than 6.000 items actually :(

ciderpunk
Hi, I'm trying to identify a "KR" etching in the runouts of Half Japanese* - U.S. Teens Are Spoiled Bums and notice that it also appears here The Lost (3) - Who Do You Love , here Inferno (3) - The Son Of God and here Roach Motel (2) - What The Hell, It's Roach Motel. All seem to be related to Archer Record Pressing. Grateful for any pointers.

hi Roach Motel (2) - What The Hell, It's Roach Motel’, the years of the releases do not match archer catalog. thanks in advance for your understanding’

- - - -

in front of this, it looks like Disc Makers test pressing image with an ‘AR-xxxx’ job number, too, like this 3rd pressing plant was also using the same scheme... !!! :o(

for sure, like already told by myself before in v7 of this same thread in december to Aladin Records, among many others, using exactly the same ‘AR-xxxx’ scheme, or printed on the labels, or etched on the deadwax.

sorry for the convenient, it was only viewable editing these ones, and i would like to post about this, here, today. it’s now done ! be sure i will retain the lesson !

respectfully, d’

dub_e_72
for sure, like already told by myself before in v7 of this same thread in december to andrenafulva, the identifier ‘AR-xxxx’ was definitely not exclusive to archer.

I didn't suggest it was a scheme exclusive to Archer; instead, I suggested that, if it is present on a disc which can be identified by other means as having been pressed by Archer and if the number after AR is sequential, that number could perhaps be entered into LCCN.

Showbiz_Kid
Tropical Recording Studio, Miami, FL, a Miami studio

There was also a label. Tropical Record

An attempted history has been drawn up here:
https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/242845-tropical-records-miami-frank-seay-etc/

seveninch
There was also a label. Tropical Record

An attempted history has been drawn up here:
https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/242845-tropical-records-miami-frank-seay-etc/

Thanks for that link - slowly the web is visualized :)

andrenafulva
I didn't suggest it was a scheme exclusive to Archer

ooops, sorry andrenafulva ! it was not what i was meaning... (arrff, my english...)

andrenafulva
instead, I suggested that, if it is present on a disc which can be identified by other means as having been pressed by Archer and if the number after AR is sequential, that number could perhaps be entered into LCCN.

definitely agree with this (for sure, your words are better than mine !). etchings and pressing rings, first ; sequential numbers, second ; about this plant. i only hope the update i just have made on the profile will be understood this way. please, can i ask you to check it, if you have a few minutes ?

dub_e_72
sorry andrenafulva ! it was not what i was meaning... (arrff, my english...)

No problem! I know it's not easy to communicate in a language that isn't your mother tongue. I just wanted to make sure we understood each other.

dub_e_72
i only hope the update i just have made on the profile will be understood this way. please, can i ask you to check it, if you have a few minutes ?

I'll be happy to do so. I'll look at it tomorrow, when I will have more time (and energy). I'll post any suggestions I have for changes to your thread about Archer rather than making changes myself, as you've done lots of research on this company and will be able to spot any incorrect information I've written.

cheers andrenafulva ! you’re welcomed !

sebfact
Yes, they should be corrected. I have adjusted the Alphabetical list to CSM (may appear as C ⎰ M - the S is thinner than the other letters), for more clarity.

was done !

Hi, I'm trying to identify a "KR" etching in the runouts of Half Japanese* - U.S. Teens Are Spoiled Bums and notice that it also appears here The Lost (3) - Who Do You Love , here Inferno (3) - The Son Of God and here Roach Motel (2) - What The Hell, It's Roach Motel. All seem to be related to Archer Record Pressing. Grateful for any pointers.

This makes no sense to me at all. If "KR" is present in the runouts, then
how would that be equated with Archer Record Pressing? I don't see
any obvious connection between "KR" AND "AR". I would be looking at other
possibilities like Keysor Record Manufacturing in Ca..instead.

Also one final note on Archer, and I've said this before, but the majority
of records that I have seen that have the "NSC" logo present in the runouts
and were most likely pressed by Archer, don't have any additional etchings
that would positively identify Archer as the pressing plant. So I have reached
the conclusion that the majority of 12" single releases that archer did press
from 1990 to the present, simply do not carry any plant ID etchings or stamps.
This makes identification nearly impossible. In some cases there might be
an arrow etching. I've seen a few of those. Sometimes "ARCHER" I have
seen that exactly one time ever. Sometimes "AR xxxx" I have yet to see
a single example of this in the runouts to date, but I know they exist.
What it all amounts to is that Archer is always going to be one of the
most difficult plants to identify based on runout etchings alone.

sebfact
Added to the master list - created a Ville Platte sub-section.

This is the first I've heard of 'Lacquer Cut At' credit for Greg Lee Processing. Are we sure about this? I thought they did plating.

Sorry for being slow, the storm over has left me stranded at the airport all of yesterday.

peterh100
hat looks like footsteps (2 bigger circles with each 4 smaller circles

As there also is an L-NIX scribe I tend to believe it's a shout out only.

etnofunk
What is a "M" with a horizontal line above it?

Added to the list of unknowns.

dsyn2spin
This makes no sense to me at all. If "KR" is present in the runouts, then how would that be equated with Archer Record Pressing?

Maybe KR is the lacquer cutting engineer?

mr.dna
I thought they did plating.

My fault - corrected.

dsyn2spin
Archer is always going to be one of the most difficult plants to identify based on runout etchings alone.

clearly ! nevertheless, those etchings are very helpful actually for us to find more, like a solid basement was built from, for us to explore each label and /or artist turning around, in order to find printed credits (in example), or whatever (we will never had the curiosity to explore before, imo)... thanks to dsyn2spin, please, do not let your arms left !

perhaps pressing rings have to be investigated, now. do you have had a look at ’https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/743281?page=38#7843262 was : ’Rare was an LP pressing by then with a 2.75" and smaller 0.4375" ring’ ! it should be great in a first time if this rare small ring could be exclusive to archer... maybe we can now find some other similar ones in the 1200 items listed. who knows ? ;)

[edit : corrected typo]

ciderpunk
Hi, I'm trying to identify a "KR" etching in the runouts of Half Japanese* - U.S. Teens Are Spoiled Bums and notice that it also appears here The Lost (3) - Who Do You Love , here Inferno (3) - The Son Of God and here Roach Motel (2) - What The Hell, It's Roach Motel. All seem to be related to Archer Record Pressing. Grateful for any pointers.

dsyn2spin
This makes no sense to me at all. If "KR" is present in the runouts, then
how would that be equated with Archer Record Pressing? I don't see
any obvious connection between "KR" AND "AR". I would be looking at other
possibilities like Keysor Record Manufacturing in Ca..instead.

you did right to point this one ! after a closer look, it seems the pressing plant Gold (25) - No Class What So Ever’). does this information need to be added to archer’s profile (in order to avoid any mistake), or... ?

sebfact
Maybe KR is the lacquer cutting engineer?

a quick search about ‘AR + KR’ gives 2 dozen of results (at the begining of the list, only), with codes like +4, +10, +8, or still +18, following the etchings. unfortunately, a fast overview of the pictures doesn’t have shown any printed credit :o(

Blacktocomm
'RITCHIE'

Added to the Master List, thanks!

dub_e_72
it seems the pressing plant Alpha Records (13), located in florida, was using the same ‘AR xxxx’ pattern at a different period than archer

Is there more research done to have it added to the Master List then?

etnofunk
The release is recorded at MTV as credited on the cover.

MTV is heavily "underpictured", unfortunately... :-(

sebfact
Is there more research done to have it added to the Master List then?

i’m afraid not, seb’, unfortunately ! :o( i have found these ones checking a last time archer’s catalog and dates attached to the job numbers in the profile. nothing better than the 30 or 50 first results found with Archer Record Pressing’s, imo. thanks for the add of ‘pressed by’ role, about ‘98’, seb’ ! have a nice week end, d’

sebfact
MTV is heavily "underpictured", unfortunately... :-(

Here is a picture of an MTV etch by https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/14651234-Hyyti%C3%A4l%C3%A4n-Pelimannit/images/update

Should it be added to images on his profile?

I suspect that PARA found in the runouts on Canadian records refers to the pressing plant associated with Precision Records. It seems this etching starts to show up around 1980; perhaps the plant or company was renamed at that time? Doing a search for this shows a bunch of records with the same pressing ring, which doesn't match any of the other major plants at the time.

The profile for Impact Records Mfg. Co. Of Canada) pressings.

So I suspect that whatever plant pressed these is behind etchings with PARA. One thing which throws me off a bit is that the typesetting on the labels, especially 80s ones, isn't very consistent. Some look like Quality, but the pressing ring isn't Quality, and they don't have Quality's Q or Qu in the deadwax. Perhaps Quality was subcontracted to print the labels for these?

brunorepublic
So I suspect that whatever plant pressed these is behind etchings with PARA.

It's definitely not a lacquer cutting etch, I've seen it with TLC cuts, F/W cuts, cuts by Emile Lepine at London (pre-SNB) and on some MCAs along with the Gloversville stamp.

I've been unable to find any release where the PARA etch is present along with a Precision credit on sleeve or labels.

This one has bugged me for some time, maybe we could open a separate dedicated thread and try and sort it out?

cheebacheebakid
This one has bugged me for some time, maybe we could open a separate dedicated thread and try and sort it out?

Sure. I've only got observations though; the non-Keel MCA records and those which state manufactured by Precision have the same pressing ring as the PARA releases. And sometimes the same typesetting, but not always.

But those CRC (which definitely aren't Columbia Record Club) releases also have the same pressing ring, and "early Cinram" seems to be the best guess on those too.

Good morning, everyone,
First of all, I apologize for two things, the translation which could be random and my total lack of knowledge of the forums.
Here's the link for one of my records. Asia (2) - Don't Cry. I've added pictures of some of the runouts. There's "HOLL-SET1" hand-engraved. I searched the 7" of this title and I noticed that it goes from SET1 to SET4.
For me "HOLL" means "HOLLAND". And the "SET" gives a different track length each time, differentiating between sides A and B. Only SET 3 and 4 have the same duration, which is not in the direction of my explanations.
Does anyone have any information, because after research, nothing on the forum.
Of course, the HOLL can be changed to another country. So a search by matrix number with "SET" brings more than 3000 results. Difficult to peel, considering that each release is not necessarily well informed.

In any case, it is an empirical search, which has no value. On the other hand, it could be the beginning of an explanation, and given your knowledge, the light may appear.

I also put a nice picture of the Artisan Sound Recordings logo. I wonder about its resemblance with the Walking Eye logo (there is only one picture). If the Walking Eye logo is hand engraved, there's no doubt about it, the Artisan Sound logo looks stamped to me. It looks more like the engraver tried to reproduce the logo. But I'm getting ahead of myself as you've done some research to confirm the difference. It would be interesting to note this difference in the labels' records, which would avoid any confusion.
Sorry for the big speech, but I'm nitpicking, I'm nitpicking...

dub_e_72
‘AR’ in conjunction with ‘KR’ and/or ‘Criteria’ were definitely not a valid pattern for Archer Record Pressing’s, imo.

Having looked at Alpha Records (13) on your advice it does look far more likely (chronology, Cat. No. sequence, etc.) to be the answer to the "AR" element of my original question. I can't work out anything for the "KR" part, there are no "+n/+nn" etchings but I suppose it could be similar to that unknown example in the list (e.g. located in Florida like Alpha Records)?

etnofunk
Should it be added to images on his profile?

Most certainly.

Bendidonc
For me "HOLL" means "HOLLAND". And the "SET" gives a different track length each time, differentiating between sides A and B.

It wasn't unusual that CBS Holland ordered and/ or received US lacquers or metals to press them (e.g. Monarch, Kendun, Artisan). A bit like they marked their pressings for the German market with HP-DUITSLAND, EXPORT , etc.

sebfact
...CBS Holland ordered and/ or received US lacquers or metals to press them...

Thank you, I've seen German presses with US markings before. But I think my translation wasn't perfect.
I'm talking about a 7" from all countries, for the same songs.
1st version; side A "SET1": 3:25, side B "SET1": 3:50
2nd version; side A "SET1": 3:25, side B "SET2": 3:31
3rd version; side A "SET4": 3:40, side B "SET4": 3:32
This shows that these "SETs" refer at least to a different track time. For you, this would only be an indication that the material would come from another country. But the 1st and 2nd version, which are also European, only have on the B-side "SET2" difference on runout and track time.

brunorepublic
I suspect that PARA found in the runouts on Canadian records refers to the pressing plant associated with Precision Records.

cheebacheebakid
It's definitely not a lacquer cutting etch, I've seen it with TLC

was about a studio called Studio Paradigm, last sunday... (please, don’t ask why !)
cannot find a ‘Static Burn’ lp version, unfortunately ! perhaps it reads ‘para’ for the plating.

brunorepublic
"early Cinram" seems to be the best guess on those too.

cd version reads Cinram.

dub_e_72
was about a studio called Studio Paradigm, last sunday... (please, don’t ask why !)
cannot find a ‘Static Burn’ lp version, unfortunately ! perhaps it reads ‘para’ for the plating.

Not even kind of related to the Canadian pressings released 14 years before that album was mixed at that studio (apparently in Portland, Oregon, US).

dub_e_72
cd version reads Cinram.

The CRC was an offhand statement about Canadian vinyl pressings at the Markham plant that opened in 1979 (or potentially the 6 vinyl presses they ran in Montreal for a short period in late 80s). It wasn't used after mid-80s and has nothing to do with any other Cinram CD mfg site anywhere else in the world.

dub_e_72
cd version reads Cinram.

Of course it does; a huge percentage, perhaps even the majority, of Canadian CD releases were made by them. All Warner, most PolyGram and BMG, and Capitol used them for a while too.

But in 1980/81, they were a much smaller player in the industry.

cheebacheebakid
(apparently in Portland, Oregon, US)

really, or... ?

cheebacheebakid
for a short period in late 80s). It wasn't used after mid-80s

do you mean a short period early 80’s ? If in late 80’s, it was used after mid-80s !?

brunorepublic
But in 1980/81, they were a much smaller player in the industry.

so, a plant from your both opinions ?

dub_e_72
really, or... ?

Not sure what you are asking but the Paradigm Studio credit you linked (for mixing) is for a small Portland artist and has another Portland studio credited on release.

dub_e_72
do you mean a short period early 80’s ? If in late 80’s, it was used after mid-80s !?

Cinram opened their big Markham plant in 1979
Cinram operated 6 presses in Montreal in the late 80s (at least we've found no confirmation of the Montreal presses before then)
The CRC etch wasn't used much after the mid-80s

dub_e_72
plant from your both opinions

Are you talking about the PARA etch on Canadian vinyl? Or the CRC etch on Canadian vinyl?

cheebacheebakid
Are you talking about the PARA etch on Canadian vinyl?

for sure ! an unknown plant ?

dub_e_72
an unknown plant ?

There were not many plants doing contract pressings for major labels when these etches appear. We don't know what it means, except that it is not a lacquering etch (that's why it's been in the Unknowns list for years). Precision Records but there is not enough info to confirm.

Bendidonc
that the material would come from another country.

I'd rather say that different masterings / cuts were produced by Artisan.

Another new design/symbol in the runout: T1 + ‧o‧
Does this "‧o‧" mean something special (I didn't find anything), or is it just a new symbol to add to François Terrazzoni's ?
Photo The Stingers (6) - Give It Up

sebfact
Most certainly.

It is added

OK. Can I add the picture? Because to me a picture is much more meaningful.

Bendidonc
Can I add the picture?

To the release and the profile: yes, please

I found these mysterious etchings in the deadwax. The record was processed at GLP, if it's worth anything. Thank you.

A side: https://postimg.cc/zySdvQcw
B side: https://postimg.cc/4YZ5D5xY

flipresistor
Anyways, I found these mysterious etchings in the deadwax.

That's Eddie Schreyer

Release déjà faite, profile fait.

Release already done, profile done.

sebfact
Bigdumdum721Anyways, I found these mysterious etchings in the deadwax.That's Eddie Schreyer

Lacquer Cut By - E*?

flipresistor
Lacquer Cut By - E*?

ES*, I'd say