Guideline update: 5.2.c - Change 'can' to 'should'

Pinging Diognes_The_Fox as requested.

Following on from this edit:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/3599099-World-Outside-Your-Window/history?diff=22&page=1
and the subsequent forum thread, https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/778735

I requested via SR that the wording of RSG §5.2.c was changed; changing 'This information can all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.' to 'This information should all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.'

Bump.

Any objections?

I like it.

+1

Absolutely no objection.

hafler3o
Absolutely no objection

Indeed.
My preference is for 'should' to be used wherever possible in the guidelines, to reduce the ambiguity across the databse.

Diognes_The_Fox
Any objections?

Hell, no!!!
These permanent discussions about this is tiring … and searching for the adequate rulings in the Forum a waste of time we all could save us.

"Should be" no objections at all. Also, Is there a current forum consensus somewhere about how to describe stamped & etched?

typoman2
These permanent discussions about this is tiring … and searching for the adequate rulings in the Forum a waste of time we all could save us.

There's been times I've jumped the gun on updates and got a load of flack for it. I'll get this updated soon.

TopCats45s
Also, Is there a current forum consensus somewhere about how to describe stamped & etched?

Not that I am aware of. I use some generic wording that I am sure some people disagree with. Generally, it's pretty rare that there's a need to be able to differentiate between stamped or etched info. I think bootleg detection is one of the few things where it matters, but that information should also be explained in the notes for clarity, too.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/356624?page=2#7795953 bam

My main concern with this change is that it makes the matrix data appear to be mandatory. Since other Guidelines weren't changed that isn't the case, is it?

Well done! "Can" was ambiguous. It's a lot easier to read & sort the runouts if they are all in one thread.

Fauni-Gena
My main concern with this change is that it makes the matrix data appear to be mandatory. Since other Guidelines weren't changed that isn't the case, is it?

No, it should just be for when adding matrix info that it should be formatted that way.

Cornbread55
Well done! "Can" was ambiguous. It's a lot easier to read & sort the runouts if they are all in one thread.

No.
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

And then using 'can' in the guideline as a reason not to put it all in one line.

*edit sorry, thought I quoted fauni?

+1, also possibly drop the 'matrix number' notion, next thing you know someone claims guidelines only cover numbers, not text, logos, glyphs and flower emojis.

Is this so correct?

Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, full inscription): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, full inscription): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A and B, stamped): -48998-

At Pavallion - Stratospheria

Regards

andygrayrecords
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

This may sound completely wild and shocking but how about embedding a screen grab of a correctly entered Matrix full string with bits and bobs extracted in further fields with a green as in valid visual cue and another one with bits and bobs truncated and randomly split across how many fields the preferred with a red as in not OK visual cue?

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, full inscription): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, full inscription): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-

I think the idea being that this is the correct version and to probably note that -48998- being stamped in either the description field or the release notes.

But, honestly, I like that it says should instead of must, because that honestly doesn't look so bad as it's currently formatted, except for the duplication of data.

I agree strongly with:

andygrayrecords
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

Fauni-Gena
My main concern with this change is that it makes the matrix data appear to be mandatory. Since other Guidelines weren't changed that isn't the case, is it?

It never was and still isn't.
And the s who like to argue about that are not newcomers (in my expirience) but people who are or should be aware of RSG §1.3.1.a.
It's only – if you enter it … enter it correctly and as per older rulings in the Forum

Edit: elaborating

(combining into one post)

Andygray, maybe I didn't make myself clear, but what you posted was exactly what I meant - that all the parts of one thread SHOULD be combined. CAN made it optional and so we got messes like you posted.

Cornbread55
Andygray

Absolutely clear.
I was replying to fauni asking whether it would be compulsory information.

punkergott
Is this so correct?

Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, full inscription): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, full inscription): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A and B, stamped): -48998-

At Pavallion - Stratospheria

Regards

Based on this thread a few years ago
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/394054#3702849

over 4 years ago

Yukabacera

Barcode and Other Identifiers
Barcode: 787996900711
Matrix / Runout (Side A): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side B): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side A, Etched): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Side B, Etched): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Both Sides Stamped): GOLDEN

avalon67
This is the way I've been told in the past when I've tried to split etched/stamped.

But I'm still learning :)

So we finally have it in Guidelines that runout entries should be single-line entry, which does away with the splitting-up of info and simplifies releases, but some folks still want to enter split entries for etched & stamped in addition? Which is redundant and adds bloat and simplifies nothing at all...

I have got no problem with the guideline change and I like reducing the possibility for being ambiguous

But - sorry if this is a rather stupid question - how should the Matrix of a DVD with layer now be added? For example this release: Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Brain Salad Surgery.
From the BAOI section:
Matrix / Runout (DVD - Layer 1): ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-A911 18 A00
Matrix / Runout (DVD - Layer 2): ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-B911 17 A00

From now on it has to be entered as:
Matrix / Runout: ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-A911 18 A00 ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-B911 17 A00

Or not? Or when there is Matrix info in the mould code area like this one: Reutoff - No One's Lullabies
Matrix / Runout: ZHB-LXI
Matrix / Runout (Mould): ООО "Маркон" Лицензия МПТР России ВАФ №77-103

Should it be entered now as:
Matrix / Runout: ZHB-LXI ООО "Маркон" Лицензия МПТР России ВАФ №77-103

RSG §5.2.c covers also the Matrix of DVDs/CDs/Blu-rays and I always hated to when ',anufactured by optimal media GmbH' was entered in one Matrix number and the pressing ID in another. But adding the two layers in one field looks strange or when the location is different...

I am a bit confused...and before a mistake I thought I asked :)

Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, full inscription): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, full inscription): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A and B, stamped): -48998-

Diognes_The_Fox
note that -48998- being stamped in either the description field or the release notes

since a few month i see (and use it too) the most siple method

Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

same here

Matrix / Runout (Side A): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side B): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side A, Etched): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Side B, Etched): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Both Sides Stamped): GOLDEN

=
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)... [GOLDEN]
Matrix / Runout (Side B, etched [stamped]): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)... [GOLDEN]

Diognes_The_Fox
I agree strongly with:

andygrayrecords
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

easy:

=
Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, etched [stamped]): F [TY1] DAMONT MT. YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, etched [stamped]): C [TY1] MT. DAMONT YZ-363T-B-1

the "sideways" information etc. can find in the LCCN profile, like they do with|@

Optimal Media GmbH: ... There are sometimes additional, faintly inscribed "geometric" marks. These are added during plating, and are therefore mirrored. They consist of a digit and a symmetrical symbol such as +, =, △. Enter these with the runout string in their non-mirrored form (e.g. "1=") and note this in the description field (e.g. "1= mirrored").

i "found" this via the LCCN profile
=
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/6545834-The-Wanderings-Of-The-Avener/history?diff=22&page=1

Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout, etched [mirrored]): 4716946 [1T] BE75679-01 A1 JP
Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout, etched [mirrored]): 4716946 [1V] BE75679-01 B1 JP
Matrix / Runout (Side C, runout, etched [mirrored]): 4716946 [1+] BE75679-02 C1 JP
Matrix / Runout (Side D, runout, etched [mirrored]): 4716946 [1=] BE75679-02 D1 JP

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
the "sideways" information etc. can find in the LCCN profile, like they do with|@

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
i "found" this via the LCCN profile

Hmm. I use square brackets to explain stuff I can't transcribe myself, so looking at this I can at least follow what's going on here. It's not perfect, but transcribing runouts rarely is.

Thoughts?

Diognes_The_Fox
Thoughts?

I just use the description field.
Blurum 13* - Sleep Speechless
Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, stamped, JFR024 A-2 is etched): JFR024 A-02-1-1 JFR024 A-2
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, stamped, JFR024 B-2 is etched): JFR024 B-02-1-1 JFR024 B-2

We're not supposed to add stuff to the matrix string that isn't there - although allowances are made for things that can't be typed, such as [company logo], [birds in flight] or [flower] etc., so whatever - have no issue with how oldfriends is doing it - I have moved 'stamped' or 'etched' from the string to the description field though.

Diognes_The_Fox
I use square brackets to explain stuff I can't transcribe myself

Same here. E.g. [Peace Symbol] or [Smiley Face]

To use it for parts of the runout string that is different from the rest seems awkward to me.
I always preferred the was it used to be before, to split etched and stamped parts in different lines.
Since that is now not an option anymore either a) the release notes need to be used for describing differences for parts in the runouts (which is IMHO not a good way to handle this) or b) the descriptor field needs to be used for that (which might lead to rather cryptic and rather long lines).
Alternatively we don't differentiate anymore between etched and stamped info (which I find to be not a good conclusion either - since sometimes that factor can also be helpful to find out, which plant or cutter manufactured the item.)

It's a pickle.

Mr.Slut
since sometimes that factor can also be helpful to find out, which plant or cutter manufactured the item

Could examples be provided for this? Based on my experience, needing to differentiate between the two has been pretty rare, but I didn't want to rule out any use cases.

Also, it does say 'should', not 'must'. It's just really encouraged, but I think if there's specific use cases where it's required to make sense of the data / differentiate between similar versions, do as you must.

Ideally some kind of editor with a bunch of different fonts, bold/italics/strike/backwards/etc, and a custom glyph editor would be key, but I'm not sure if I could convince management to invest into it.

andygrayrecords
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, stamped, JFR024 B-2 is etched): JFR024 B-02-1-1 JFR024 B-2

That creates a lot of long lines and redundancies.

The previously used two lines (one for stamped, one for etched) avoided that.

Diognes_The_Fox
Ideally some kind of editor with a bunch of different fonts, bold/italics/strike/backwards/etc, and a custom glyph editor would be key, but I'm not sure if I could convince management to invest into it.

I've seen (rarely) CBS Aston Clinton variations where sometimes the matrix is stamped and other times it's etched - but tbh, it makes no difference as they're just variants - a stamped matrix vs an etched matrix is not justification to split a release AFAIK unless of course one had an engineer sig and the other didn't

In my opinion the information on what's Stamped and Etched can go in the Release Notes like all miscellaneous information of that nature about a release.

Mr.Slut
The previously used two lines (one for stamped, one for etched) avoided that.

Other way would be to add
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout): JFR024 B-02-1-1 JFR024 B-2
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, stamped): JFR024 B-02-1-1
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, etched): JFR024 B-2
which begins to look clunky when you get a few variants - not so much for this release, but certainly for big selling releases.

cellularsmoke
In my opinion the information on what's Stamped and Etched can go in the Release Notes like all miscellaneous information of that nature about a release.

Agreed, if the difference is that minor, it should also be noted in the notes where it's more clear to other people.

Diognes_The_Fox
Could examples be provided for this?

well, it's a mix of factors that suggests a plant. I don't have specific example, but a few random ones:
E.g. Schallplattenfabrik Pallas uses a specific form of stamped numbers e.g. -49466-.
Celebrate Records GmbH uses etched six-digit numbers followed by other letters and numbers.
Teldec (when they were still around) always stamped their numbers, as does GZ Media / GZ Digital media

Just the fact that we know these are stamped rules out a few plants that might have done the pressing too. It's way not the only factor, but it helps when trying to determine, which plant manufactured a vinyl.

Diognes_The_Fox
Ideally some kind of editor with a bunch of different fonts, bold/italics/strike/backwards/etc, and a custom glyph editor would be key, but I'm not sure if I could convince management to invest into it.

Now THAT would certainly help!

cellularsmoke
In my opinion the information on what's Stamped and Etched can go in the Release Notes like all miscellaneous information of that nature about a release.

I'm not sure I've ever thought of this solution, but I like it. It would actually really be helpful if we could solidify something like that.

"_____ in runouts is stamped."

Maybe even make a concrete decision on terminology for notes. like whether we use "run-outs., runouts, run outs, dead wax or ...? Just brainstorming. Throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

common nomenclature is always good; I would actually keep it same as the BaOI drop down so Release Notes looked something like:

Matrix/Run-Out, Stamped: STERLING
Matrix/Run-Out, Etched: 9026-10-A1

andygrayrecords
Other way would be to add
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout): JFR024 B-02-1-1 JFR024 B-2
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, stamped): JFR024 B-02-1-1
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, etched): JFR024 B-2
which begins to look clunky when you get a few variants - not so much for this release, but certainly for big selling releases.

As explained above

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, full inscription): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, full inscription): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A and B, stamped): -48998-

regards

punkergott
regards

You are just not getting the point here, are you?

Showbiz_Kid
You are just not getting the point here, are you?

I learn it so,

punkergott
Based on this thread a few years ago
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/394054#3702849

over 4 years ago

Yukabacera
Barcode and Other Identifiers
Barcode: 787996900711
Matrix / Runout (Side A): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side B): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)... GOLDEN
Matrix / Runout (Side A, Etched): SYR 7-A 17141.1(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Side B, Etched): SYR 7-B 17141.2(3)...
Matrix / Runout (Both Sides Stamped): GOLDEN

avalon67
This is the way I've been told in the past when I've tried to split etched/stamped.

But I'm still learning :)

andygrayrecords
I just use the description field.
Blurum 13* - Sleep Speechless
Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, stamped, JFR024 A-2 is etched): JFR024 A-02-1-1 JFR024 A-2
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout, stamped, JFR024 B-2 is etched): JFR024 B-02-1-1 JFR024 B-2

We're not supposed to add stuff to the matrix string that isn't there - although allowances are made for things that can't be typed, such as [company logo], [birds in flight] or [flower] etc., so whatever - have no issue with how oldfriends is doing it - I have moved 'stamped' or 'etched' from the string to the description field though.

So at my example

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-

I can live with this.
I don‘t like

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

There are no boxed brackets in the runout,
Regards

My apologies, perhaps the language barrier made me not understand.

punkergott
So at my example

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-

I can live with this.
I don‘t like

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

There are no boxed brackets in the runout,

Agree with this. Characters should not be entered into runout data fields that do not exist on the physical release.

Showbiz_Kid
Characters should not be entered into runout data fields that do not exist on the physical release.

I do beleave that nik said the same thing in a tread some time ago.
I also agree with this

andygrayrecords
I requested via SR that the wording of RSG §5.2.c was changed; changing 'This information can all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.' to 'This information should all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.'

To be honest, both can and should, in this case, indicate the same thing: that you are presented with an option.

Is "must" a better auxiliary verb than can or should in this case?

andygrayrecords
stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
...

I always add info about how some characters appear in the runouts in the notes. That is if I do.

andygrayrecords
'This information should all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.'

MJG196
To be honest, both can and should, in this case, indicate the same thing: that you are presented with an option.

Is "must" a better auxiliary verb than can or should in this case?

-> "Add this information to one 'Matrix number' field."

No should, can or must needed, just a clear instruction on how to add it.

edited this according to what is discussed here: Regata (2) - Gewinnen U. Verlieren.
When you look at the entry, the info for the runouts clutters the notes now. Not sure if that is better than before or not (apart from the other corrections I did):
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/1499054-Gewinnen-U-Verlieren/history#latest

Mr.Slut
When you look at the entry, the info for the runouts clutters the notes now.

What is wrong with:

(Runout side A stamped, JE etched): 76.10 208-01-1 JE

As so many others do?

Showbiz_Kid
What is wrong with:

(Runout side A stamped, JE etched): 76.10 208-01-1 JE

Not sure if you followed the discussion above. That was coined by Diognes_The_Fox (as well as other s later).

(Runout side A stamped, JE etched): 76.10 208-01-1 JE works too, but it clutters the descriptor line. In this example there is little text that needs explaining, but runouts can be way more complicated.

Mr.Slut
When you look at the entry, the info for the runouts clutters the notes now. Not sure if that is better than before or not (apart from the other corrections I did):
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/1499054-Gewinnen-U-Verlieren/history#latest

I think it's fine like that.
Except that in the notes you entered the same runout for A & B.

As an alternative, you can also write in one line:
Runouts are stamped, only JE is etched.

Edited accordingly - see Regata (2) - Gewinnen U. Verlieren.

cellularsmoke
In my opinion the information on what's Stamped and Etched can go in the Release Notes like all miscellaneous information of that nature about a release.

Diognes_The_Fox
Agreed, if the difference is that minor, it should also be noted in the notes where it's more clear to other people.

Mr.Slut
Edited accordingly - see Regata (2) - Gewinnen U. Verlieren.

-1, we have a free description field for the baoi’s, so why descriptions in the notes?
At this example I must read the runout description, the free description field
and the release notes, very complicated.

Mr.Slut
Runout side A stamped, JE etched): 76.10 208-01-1 JE works too, but it clutters the descriptor line. In this example there is little text that needs explaining, but runouts can be way more complicated.

When I prefer this example above,
at your example Mr.Slut the release notes are cluttered.
Imho infos about the baoi’s belongs to the free description field,
on the other side the release notes are spammed with informations which belongs to other fields and runout description in the notes is a clash with
RSG §11.3. The following items are forbidden from the release notes:

Any information that belongs in other specific sections of the release data. The notes can be used to expand on, or refer to, this information, however.

Regards amd good morning

punkergott
-1, we have a free description field for the baoi’s, so why descriptions in the notes?

Because every example in this thread looks like crap, and becomes increasingly difficult to decipher the more variations a Release has. Keeping the BaOI clean makes it easier to read and the Release Notes add additional information where needed.

This place is amazing. One problem is solved, 5 more are immediately created :/

autumnyears
But - sorry if this is a rather stupid question - how should the Matrix of a DVD with layer now be added? For example this release: Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Brain Salad Surgery.
From the BAOI section:
Matrix / Runout (DVD - Layer 1): ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-A911 18 A00
Matrix / Runout (DVD - Layer 2): ['Sony DADC' logo] A0102321577-B911 17 A00

It's perfectly natural to have two matrix entries here, because each matrix is for a different layer. No different than if one was on each side, except there is probably an inner and outer matrix. Tip - there is often a different Mould SID Code on each side, even when the matrices are on the same side.

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
since a few month i see (and use it too) the most siple method

Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

I actually do this too because it's the shorstest and doesn't repeat information. I'm fine with not doing this and moving the stamped/etched info to the notes though. What I don't like however is putting parts of the matrix string in the discription, it looks cluttered and it's hard to find your copy in hand if you need to scan loads of entries for the correct version.

Violent-Power
OLDFRIENDSFORSALEsince a few month i see (and use it too) the most siple method

Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

I actually do this too because it's the shorstest and doesn't repeat information. I'm fine with not doing this and moving the stamped/etched info to the notes though. What I don't like however is putting parts of the matrix string in the discription, it looks cluttered and it's hard to find your copy in hand if you need to scan loads of entries for the correct version.

But you have [Boxed Brackets] in the runout description,
so I prefer this version:

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Runout side B, etched, -48998- stamped): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-

regards

punkergott
-1, we have a free description field for the baoi’s, so why descriptions in the notes?
At this example I must read the runout description, the free description field
and the release notes, very complicated.

I disagree:
1 The baoi shows the most important information. Whether it is stamped or etched is in the majority of cases no more than an utter detail. Notes are more appropriate

2 The notes are invented to put in every information that is not regarded essential enough to make a dedicated field. But the more you use the notes to provide extra information (what appears as verbatim on the release, descriptions of the layout, languages in which liner notes appear, the information on the spine, descriptive runout information.... The notes field is what takes at least half of the time in an above average quality submission. The notes are there to be used, you cannot clutter a submission with the notes, you clutter a submission by trying to avoid using the notes
3 In the notes you at least don't need to compress your words and you can use clear language and get as much into detail as is needed to clarify something

And if how the runouts are looking is really important: use photography.
Cluttering the baoi with side information while the greatest field of all can do it better, that's not my cup of tea.

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
since a few month i see (and use it too) the most siple method

Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

That is actually explicitly forbidden by the guidelines: no other characters than extra spaces (including nbsp -non breaking space unicode character 0160) may be introduced in the runout field.

The description fields in the baoi are there to more exactly describe what you are entering, definitely not how what you are entering appears. Discogs advised using notes and photographs for these things from the early days on.

Introducing brackets and similar to the runouts and combining this with extensive descriptions might be nice for the one who entered it, but someone else almost needs to decode the stuff. Compare:

Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]
Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched [stamped]): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle [-48998-]

with

Matrix / Runout (Side A): TON046A2 Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-
Matrix / Runout (Side B): TON046B Kitaro at Schnittstelle -48998-

+

Notes:
blabranlknnlfaenlinae:
Fantasied by fjaekgz GmBh UnLtd.
gzjqkgjzq qsdf sdf s
jgqzksljglzq qsgs g qg sqg
If you enter details like that, a lot of info must be present in the notes, I hope
–
HJKhjldfshMM LKhl dfgdsgsdg fdh qfsdg in English and Dutch
Blabla
And some descriptions in proper English full sentences that don't need decoding or allow 1001 interpretations, might be there too

And some sections, for instance for the center labels:
With some more detailed info and descriptionsblabla

Runout information:
Runouts are etched, only "-48998-" is stamped.

You see, you cannot use the notes for too much things, but you can clutter the baoi.
The notes are invented to concentrate all "clutter".
If something is regarded clutter in the notes, it should not be included in the submission at all.

My advice: use the notes for this.

Dr.SultanAszazin
My advice: use the notes for this.

No, we have a free description field, so use it.

Dr.SultanAszazin
My advice: use the notes for this.

Ps when we follow your advice, I must take at every release an extra look in the release notes about the runout or baoi description and as above:

punkergott
RSG §11.3. The following items are forbidden from the release notes:

Any information that belongs in other specific sections of the release data. The notes can be used to expand on, or refer to, this information, however.

punkergott
No, we have a free description field, so use it.

uhm, we have a "desription field" to specify what you are entering.
It was never intended to provide details of how things are looking.

Whats next?:
Rights Society (Side A, appears in a rounded, golden rectangle with a purple background with white dots and yellow text): BIEM

Apart from that, you are providing a non-argument.
You know... we have a notes field, so use it.

Dr.SultanAszazin
uhm, we have a "desription field" to specify what you are entering.
It was never intended to provide details of how things are looking.

Shure

RSG §5.9. The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant. If an identifier is associated with only a subset of the total labels on the release, you can include the exact label name/s it is associated with.

For me is the guideline clear,
and in combination with:

RSG §11.3. The following items are forbidden from the release notes:

Any information that belongs in other specific sections of the release data. The notes can be used to expand on, or refer to, this information, however.

clear and clearer!

Dr.SultanAszazin
Apart from that, you are providing a non-argument.
You know... we have a notes free descrition field, so use it.

Regards

punkergott
Ps when we follow your advice, I must take at every release an extra look in the release notes about the runout or baoi description and as above:

Well, isn't it normal that you look up details in the notes? Personally I am seldom interested in whether the runouts are stamped or scratched. Records from the same pressing plant usually all have the same style regarding that.
I do look at the exact appearance of runouts, some stamps can be differentiated from others on the same record, which can be useful to determine the manufacturer. How are you going to describe that?

punkergott
RSG §11.3. The following items are forbidden from the release notes:

Any information that belongs in other specific sections of the release data. The notes can be used to expand on, or refer to, this information, however.

OK, so now you are trying to insinuate that the appearance of information should be described in the baoi description?
It doesn't belong there, it's just a too wide spread bad practice.

There are 2 places where it is allowed to describe the appearance of a release or of details of the release:
1st: Images
2nd: Notes

not:
-in titles
-in artist names or ANV's
-in lccn fields
-in baoi or baoi descriptions

Now, it's not that I keep myself busy with moderating subs who describe the appearance in the baoi. I mostly ignore it, but if you ask me, "Where should I enter it so my submission complies as much as possible with the guidelines?" I will answer: "It is best entered in the notes and/or accompanied by images."
That's what came out of reading the RSG & regular forum reading over a long period.
That's also what I experienced after once thinking to use the baoi more extensive. When information is entered in the baoi descriptions, it is often to compressed and sometimes dubious in interpretation. (I mean the phenomenon where the intention of the writer arrives different at the reader who can't read the writer's mind).

Now this reminds me of why we once founded the ed charity "Oggers Against Obsessive Linking"(TM)....

punkergott
anything else that seems significant.

Well that part of the rsg is the only thing why it is acceptable to enter stamped/etched there. That is if one thinks it is significant.
Which is not the case in the majority of cases.

...but subjective.... so as I said: I don't keep myself busy with how others do it, but to me it is a detail which can go to the notes. (I do not mean it should be left out, details may in some cases become significant later for some reason)

Dr.SultanAszazin
There are 2 places where it is allowed to describe the appearance of a release or of details of the release:
1st: Images
2nd: Notes

not:
-in titles
-in artist names or ANV's
-in lccn fields
-in baoi or baoi descriptions

For you, as above:

punkergott
RSG §5.9. The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant. If an identifier is associated with only a subset of the total labels on the release, you can include the exact label name/s it is associated with.

So there is third place, or not?

punkergott
free descrition field

Actually, it's just called a "description field"
Although it is free: you do not need to pay for using it;)

punkergott
So there is third place, or not?

Dr.SultanAszazin
Well that part of the rsg is the only thing why it is acceptable to enter stamped/etched there. That is if one thinks it is significant.
Which is not the case in the majority of cases.

...but subjective.... so as I said: I don't keep myself busy with how others do it, but to me it is a detail which can go to the notes.

What I mean is that a description in the baoi is no reason to vote nmc or edit a release. Neither should one when that information is in the notes. That would be preference edits.

It is subjective: If you judge it to be significant, you may enter it in the baoi. If you judge it to be side information, just included to be complete: use the notes.

Showbiz_Kid
This place is amazing. One problem is solved, 5 more are immediately created :/

I don’t see that there was a big problem on the first place.
But why standardised runout entry when there’s no standard description capitalisation rule.?
Discogs is weird 🐽

Dr.SultanAszazin
That is if one thinks it is significant.

Complete sentence pls!

punkergott
The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant.

scenescof
I don’t see that there was a big problem on the first place.
But why standardised runout entry when there’s no standard description capitalisation rule.?
Discogs is weird 🐽

+1

Dr.SultanAszazin
Whether it is stamped or etched is in the majority of cases no more than an utter detail

AMEN! totally nonsense to use etched/stamped it clutter BaoI and the data of the string does not change ;-)

Dr.SultanAszazin
That is actually explicitly forbidden by the guidelines: no other characters than extra spaces

oha 1: may i see this Guideline? i have to refer to it when i revert/edit my (countless) pendings...
oha 2: if this is true... what about thelogos?

Matrix / Runout (Side A Etched Variant 1): 1-25292-A-SR-1 [Artisan Logo] [SRC Logo]
Matrix / Runout (Side B Etched Variant 1): 1-25292-B-SR-2 [Artisan Logo] [SRC Logo]

yet that was the way to go:
[Allied 'ɑ' logo] = Add "[Allied 'ɑ' logo]" on it's position in the matrix string

not anymore?

edit:
if i understand right we are swimming in opposite directions: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/769109

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
edit:
if i understand right we are swimming in opposite directions: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/769109

Thx for the link,
Regards

Dr.SultanAszazin
You see, you cannot use the notes for too much things, but you can clutter the baoi.
The notes are invented to concentrate all "clutter".
If something is regarded clutter in the notes, it should not be included in the submission at all.

My advice: use the notes for this.

done:

Notes:
Matrix/Runout:
Glass master: UNIVERSAL MUSIC (SWITZERLAND) AG / 062931
Etched: 08-01 00· ### [the last 3 digits are illegible and replaced with a #]

BaoI:
Matrix / Runout (CD1): UNIVERSAL MUSIC (SWITZERLAND) AG / 062931 08-01 00·
Matrix / Runout (CD2): UNIVERSAL MUSIC (SWITZERLAND) AG / 062934

@ Various - Bestseller Auf Dem Plattenteller (68-82)

no idea how it works vor variants

edit:
like this?

Notes:
Matrix/Runout:
Glass Master: EMI UDEN 4926319 @ 2
Mould Pressing Code (etched), variant 1: 2-1-1 NL
Mould Pressing Code (etched), variant 2: 2-1-3 NL

BaoI:
Matrix / Runout (Variant 1): EMI UDEN 4926319 @ 2 2-1-1 NL
Mastering SID Code (Variant 1): IFPI L046
Matrix / Runout (Variant 2): EMI UDEN 4926319 @ 2 2-1-3 NL
Mastering SID Code (Variant 2): IFPI L046

https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/206518-Eleven-Promos/history?diff=39&page=1

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
done:

Stupid!

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
done:

Ps was there a solution in this thread that

Dr.SultanAszazin
You see, you cannot use the notes for too much things, but you can clutter the baoi.
The notes are invented to concentrate all "clutter".
If something is regarded clutter in the notes, it should not be included in the submission at all.

My advice: use the notes for this

is vaild?

Diognes stated that the idea of using the Notes to designate Etched and Stamped was a good idea well upthread. It's been vocalized by several people as a good solution so the BaOI remains as clean as possible.

Diognes_The_Fox
Hmm. I use square brackets to explain stuff I can't transcribe myself, so looking at this I can at least follow what's going on here. It's not perfect, but transcribing runouts rarely is.

Thoughts?

It is not perfect
And

Diognes_The_Fox
I agree strongly with:
andygrayrecords
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

And so there are two options at the moment

cellularsmoke
Diognes stated that the idea of using the Notes to designate Etched and Stamped was a good idea well upthread. It's been vocalized by several people as a good solution so the BaOI remains as clean as possible.

and not one

punkergott
It is not perfect
And
andygrayrecords
It was to stop things such as:
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - sideways): F
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side A, etched): YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - sideways): C
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, stamped): TY1
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): MT.
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched - facing label): DAMONT
Matrix / Runout (runout, side B, etched): YZ-363T-B-1

i assume you have a language barrier or overseen tiny detail...?
@ https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/785246?utm_campaign=-mention&utm_medium=pm&page=1&utm_source=relationship#7795971
if i'm not a legastenic i see that DTF agree with "to stop things" like this ;-)

however, if i would continue the advice to keep Baoi clean and use the notes* it could be the follow:

Notes:
Matrix / Runout:
The strings are etched, except "TY1" is stamped and the characters "F" & "C" are rotated 90°. "DAMONT" is upsidedown

BaoI:
Matrix / Runout (Side A runout): F TY1 DAMONT MT. YZ-363T-A-1
Matrix / Runout (Side B runout): C TY1 MT. DAMONT YZ-363T-B-1

notes* = maybe a 2nd notes field exclusive for describe matrix may solve the "Stupid!" notes "issue" and the actual string ignore all formats and remain plain data

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
Notes:
Matrix / Runout:
The strings are etched, except "TY1" is stamped and the characters "F" & "C" are rotated 90°. "DAMONT" is upsidedown

OK, I have to ask a pointed question: what is the obsession with the orientation of characters? In the example above, for instance, who gives a flying fig that the characters are rotated or inverted? It makes no difference as long as they are in the proper position in the runout string so that s can match it to their own copy in hand.

There's no reason to be so obsessed with crap like this.

I personally prefer the (Side A stamped, [etched]) but understand why people are against it

so with that, I am for explaining it in the notes section, I have a hard time reading the runouts when the descriptor field has repeat info it in

It's not currently possible but I think it would be awesome if we could program it so etched info is italicized to set it apart from stamped

In general, yeah, I haven't really seen any reason yet why it would be important to transcribe that level of detail, but if that's the key crucial method of telling two valid different versions apart, it should be explained in the notes anyways.

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
i assume you have a language barrier or overseen tiny detail...?
@ https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/785246?utm_campaign=-mention&utm_medium=pm&page=1&utm_source=relationship#7795971
if i'm not a legastenic i see that DTF agree with "to stop things" like this ;-)

I understand it false,
regards

vinylenoch
I personally prefer the (Side A stamped, [etched]) but understand why people are against it

So
Runout side A, stamped, xyz etched
?

punkergott
So
Runout side A, stamped, xyz etched
?

I definitely prefer notes, but on voting, I consider your style no obstacle for voting correct or not.
I also never felt an urge to edit subs for this.

Only at the point the baoi becomes a clogged up with too much information of this kind, I see a reason to act difficult.
While I like a readable layout, with some air in between things, and extensive notes, priority is that the entered data is correct.

Dr.SultanAszazin
I definitely prefer notes, but on voting, I consider your style no obstacle for voting correct or not.
I also never felt an urge to edit subs for this.

Only at the point the baoi becomes a clogged up with too much information of this kind, I see a reason to act difficult.
While I like a readable layout, with some air in between things, and extensive notes, priority is that the entered data is correct.

+1 at the moment.
No clear decisions at the moment and so:
1.10.3. Please don't do updates just to change the order of data (such as in the format or credit fields). Only do updates to correct or add information.

punkergott
vinylenochI personally prefer the (Side A stamped, [etched]) but understand why people are against it
So
Runout side A, stamped, xyz etched
?

Sorry for the late reply and not being clear

so

A-side (etched) [stamped]: (CLMN-163-A dP #2) [WELL MADE MUSIC]

so everything in the parenthesis is etched and everything in the brackets is stamped
again I get that it adds things not in the runouts and therefore isn't great
personally, I would like it to be formatted that etched is in italics and stamped in bold

vinylenoch
A-side (etched) [stamped]: (CLMN-163-A dP #2) [WELL MADE MUSIC]

So you have brackets in the runout and they are not part of it,
I prefer it when so:
A-side, etched, WELL MADE MUSIC stamped: CLMN-163-A dP #2 WELL MADE MUSIC

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/750332?page=5#7817118

berothbr
FWIW:
When I started contributing, I used to specify in the BaOI description field what was stamped and what was etched.
As I became more experienced, I realized this was making the BaOI section needlessly dense.
What I do now is simply explain in the submission notes whether any characters are stamped or, when applicable, what's etched and what's stamped. I do this (hopefully) to help other contributors figure out what's going on with their copy.

In comparison, adding superfluous descriptive text to the Matrix/Runout field, such as [etched] and [stamped], is problematic because it interferes with search results—particularly advanced searches—and thereby makes Discogs less usable.

I eliminating "Side" from the BaOI description fields (that's a good idea).

punkergott
vinylenochA-side (etched) [stamped]: (CLMN-163-A dP #2) [WELL MADE MUSIC]

So you have brackets in the runout and they are not part of it,
I prefer it when so:
A-side, etched, WELL MADE MUSIC stamped: CLMN-163-A dP #2 WELL MADE MUSIC

.

If you read the rest of my post, I said I understand why that won't happen, just said it was my preference
my overall preferred way isn't currently possible

with all that said I am with Diognes_The_Fox that etched and stamped info in the description field are unnecessary, in the rare times it is it belongs in the note section like everything we do, we have description field for the (P) and (C) but we put year info in the notes, seems consistent

vinylenoch
I am with

With the guideline
5.9. The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant. If an identifier is associated with only a subset of the total labels on the release, you can include the exact label name/s it is associated with.
Regards

punkergott

With the guideline
5.9. The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant. If an identifier is associated with only a subset of the total labels on the release, you can include the exact label name/s it is associated with.
Regards

the goal though is to simplify the info for readability particularly for releases with variants (which is a lot of releases), having to read through a lengthy description field that doesn't have much relevance is not -friendly

vinylenoch
having to read through a lengthy description field that doesn't have much relevance is not -friendly

I don‘t think so,
we have the field, use it,
a little bit les information in the sub or release notes!

Edit comma

punkergott
vinylenochhaving to read through a lengthy description field that doesn't have much relevance is not -friendly

I don‘t think so,
we have the field, use it,
a little bit les information in the sub or release notes!

Edit comma

I personally have had issues finding the correct release/if my variant was listed due to lengthy description fields

vinylenoch
I personally have had issues finding the correct release/if my variant was listed due to lengthy description fields

I‘m not,
so from my side is all said,
regards

vinylenoch
I personally have had issues finding the correct release/if my variant was listed due to lengthy description fields

I‘m not,
so from my side is all said,
regards

Ps or was there a mistake and the s add the description at the baoi’s and not the free description field.
Like this one
Matrix / Runout: (Side A stamped runout): 01-650312-2B-1
Matrix / Runout: (Side B stamped runout): 01-650312-2A-1
Vs
Matrix / Runout (Side A stamped runout): 01-650312-2B-1
Matrix / Runout (Side B stamped runout): 01-650312-2A-1

??????

vinylenoch I think i have finally figured out what you are trying to say in the two or three releases you have been harassing me in leaving brief bs notes and acting like your preferences are rule. Yes harassing. You could have left a couple sentences in a release that actually explained but instead you are blanketing your preferences into a small change to the guideline. I honestly didn't know this was a change until this week i can't stand the forums it just breads this type of incompetent snowballing of trying to add things into an interpretation of a change. This change was one word. Yet you are adding a lot to that in your requests to edit referencing this thread.

'This information should all be added to one 'Matrix number' field.' can to should was all that was changed here. The rest of the "guideline" entirely contradicts you saying what stays or goes in the description field vs notes. Nor has that been changed. Its just to use one line per side basically so no more stamped and etchings on separate lines. See how easy that was to explain. Great cool but this small change wont fix the crazy baoi formatting so you are trying to twist it into it. However, immediately following the changed line is the retained portion that states,
"Matrix Numbers and other run out information can also be extracted from the whole run out inscription, and added as further 'Matrix Number' fields with descriptions and / or expanded upon in the notes as the submitter sees fit.

Not "notes and / or expanded in descriptions". Not only use descriptions field for side denotation as you seem to pawn off as the change.

Descriptions first. and. or. if, a submitter sees fit the notes field. NOT the other way around. That's a lot of language before we get to your preference. Hope you are able to read this clearly as you could not interpret this guideline.

In addition this guideline still stands to explain to s how to use the field and was left unchanged.
5.9. The description field can be used to add any further information regarding the identifier, such as the identifier type, any descriptive text associated with it, its location on the release, or anything else that seems significant. If an identifier is associated with only a subset of the total labels on the release, you can include the exact label name/s it is associated with.

You tried including staff quotes as actual rulings on your preferences even taking their comments out of context.
Just because a staff said they would prefer it, agreed in, or like it in the notes. Doesn't mean it's rule either. I know i've read Diognes_The_Fox say in previous discussions to just go with what formatting was previously existing in the description fields. kinda quid pro quo on formatting differences this stance makes sense. if you are adding say label matrix and wanted to add etchings you would use same syntax for your eg
existing
Side A Etched Variant 1
don't add it
A side hand etched variant 2
This is because it is a guide line. not a rule book. yeah sure some of it more important than other parts but here we are already swimming in the mundane. Most collectors, discogers and people don't care about runouts. I do. It helps me understand production process of a record, players behind the scenes and determine bootlegs and the ever more common new reproductions or records that aim to look exactly like the original copies. Stamped to Etching tells me a bit about the production facility home grown small shops typically use etchings while larger or older plants use stamps. Even if from your perspective it has no importance it doesn't mean it wont ever.

Stamped or etched belongs in the description field per the existing language in the guidelines. I've pointed out where it would need to be changed in order to make your preference changes to my subs. leave me alone in my subs and edits especially ones that predate any changes to the guidelines or better yet change them yourself. Own your preference so you can get banned. I have no problem conforming to combining them to one line but the guidelines are not clear on how to add them to one line so you can't begin to think they would be formatted one way.

To the rest of the community sorry for the rant this guy didn't have any decency to explain anything. Just barked orders and has been all over my edits. I consider myself above average in discogs so im not about to just listen if you aint gonna quote a guideline.

Now that i am up to speed though IMO the how to fix the rampant baoi formatting onus is on discogs. It's a cms. Use it. Coral the sheep. Make the drop lists exactly what it should be eg
Matrix / Runout side A etched:, Matrix / Runout Side A Etched:, WHATEVERYOUWANTDISCOGS:
Matrix / Runout side B etched:
where side is a field that a variable can be added meaning Side Z is possible if ever needed.
Matrix / Runout side A stamped:
could also be there
as well as
Matrix / Runout side A label:
and then print it pretty on the page so it displays on one line and mixed but using simple fonts it can display a stamped runout slightly different than etched and label of course the same font as the rest of the text.
It's more self explanatory than using Forum Thread #743281 thread references to enter it. When as it stands the [t=743281 ]thread is littered with bad information eg the 8th line in
"S, H or HS? Stamped, Hand-etched or Hand-etched Script"
no one uses dashes or even "hand etched" but me because that's the way i read the forum telling me to add it but apparently it's just etched. Why no once can ctrl replace the text in the forum is beyond me. def not etching but in reality it should have been scribed. i digress but so many misleading things out there. back to how to fix it.

Finally make the baoi collapsible so those that hate looking at it can just collapse it like the credits.
All without changing the guidelines and encourages minimizing the text entered into both the description and notes fields. Notes don't need to be dirtied with this when that is the initial intent of the description field. It's great that it looks ugly now because it exposes the lack of foresight when planning the description field and it's need to be rethought.

Common values like for the runouts should also be considered for autocompletion and easy entry like a label or artist field. Entries of like gz media or Monarch where the cms could auto add the triangle so its not in two different formats Δ Δ △ △. Many symbols could be incrementally added and approved by the community Even auto adding the related lccn when it detects the match on format. This part is probably the hardest but not impossible. I mean https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/743281 has already mapped out more than 80% of the variables.

These problems of expecting everyone to type every release in the same format are not realistic given the freedom of the current fields. Moving this problem from the free description to the free notes is absolutely ridiculous. Either the guidelines remain, guide lines and not dictate syntax or the cms be altered to enforce formatting to a particular standard. Writing a guideline that could catch all the variables the community has entered has failed. Managing the baoi entry from that thread is not sustainable. It was a great start but now the cms should do the heavy lifting.

It all comes down to preference. My preference of adding what is etched and stamped to the BaOI description is no more right or wrong to anyone else's preference. DTF's preference of stating "A-Side Runout Etching" to descriptions that are stamped is not more right or wrong than mine, but can be confusing.

I get that the descriptions can be longer than the runouts themselves, but I don't look to the notes to find info on the BaOI when there are specific fields for this information.

Unless this personal preference is forbidden in the guidelines, we will always have these differences.

dj_blender
Just because a staff said they would prefer it, agreed in, or like it in the notes. Doesn't mean it's rule either. I know i've read Diognes_The_Fox say in previous discussions to just go with what formatting was previously existing in the description fields.

Keep the free text field free!!!

leeving
DTF's preference of stating "A-Side Runout Etching" to descriptions that are stamped is not more right or wrong than mine, but can be confusing.

Fair enough, I mean technically, they're all stamped and nothing is directly "etched" into the disc itself individually except maybe in a few rare situations... ;)
Different parts of the US call carbonated sugary beverages soda, cola, coke, etc. Beyond light regional ribbing, this really doesn't affect things that much. In my experience, I have yet to find a situation where differentiating between stamped and etched portions has been important, but I will generally leave other people's formatting be unless for whatever reason any additional update will decrease clarity of the submission.

I'm really more interested in doing things to increase consistency inside the data field rather than police metadata at the moment. IMO, that's where the important parts are and any metadata is better than no metadata.

dj_blender
Common values like for the runouts should also be considered for autocompletion and easy entry like a label or artist field. Entries of like gz media or Monarch where the cms could auto add the triangle so its not in two different formats Δ Δ △ △. Many symbols could be incrementally added and approved by the community Even auto adding the related lccn when it detects the match on format. This part is probably the hardest but not impossible. I mean https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/743281 has already mapped out more than 80% of the variables.

I'd love this.

Diognes_The_Fox
Different parts of the US call carbonated sugary beverages soda, cola, coke, etc.

In this part of the country it's called pop. No, that has nothing to do with the musical genre.