Sort out "symbol PANs" (e.g. ®) for mastering engineers

Based on the Advanced thread on eliminating symbols as PAN of Richard Finch).

Question then: shall we add the symbols as ANV, e.g. Rick O'Neil ANV ® (or as R)?

This is a primer for mastering engineers. PAN such as ₴Ħ∆llΩ₩§ should be discussed elsewhere.

EDIT 12 August 2021:
Related: Weighing by Tom Coyne' instead of an ANV "¢". Impacts ca. 260 releases....

Where the symbol relates to the name, I have no problem using an ANV. Therefore:
– Richard Finch ANV ® are fine.
– 'ΔM' is a stylised 'AM' so is fine as an ANV of Alan Moy.
– 'ΔM' (Delta Mu) seems fine as an ANV of Dave Moyssiadis, particularly as he seems to have Greek heritage.
– 'Δ' could be a stylised A for Anthony, and so might be fine as an ANV of Tony Taurins.
– 'π' could be a stylised M, and so might be fine as an ANV of Mike Brown (3).

I'd like to see what other people think ing Å as an ANV of Steve Smart, as it doesn't seem to relate to his name and therefore would seem to be stretching the guidelines for using ANV versus alias. And Ω can't be an ANV if we don't know the engineer's name.

Those are my current thoughts; I look forward to seeing what other people say about this.

andrenafulva
Those are my current thoughts;

Thanks. Shared by me.

andrenafulva
I'd like to see what other people think ing Å as an ANV of Steve Smart, as it doesn't seem to relate to his name and therefore would seem to be stretching the guidelines for using ANV versus alias. And Ω can't be an ANV if we don't know the engineer's name.

If we're eliminating the Alias (presumably a blanket ban?) we need to keep the ANV even though there's no obvious connection (Angstrom symbol? A (circular) cut?). My signature looks nothing like my name but it is my name written by me, but you'd scratch your head if you saw it! So if we are banning alias PANs we need a bit of take and give, so to speak.

hafler3o
if we are banning alias PANs

That's in essence what I'm asking; can we 'ban' all aliases for mastering engineers' signatures under the current guidelines? And should we attempt to do so for all signatures, or just for those which relate in some way to the full-name PAN?

Is there a discussion about the PANs ongoing? I clicked on the PYE link but got the identification thread. I was always under the impression we used an alias if the ANV was in any way problematic. Personally, looking at the list by sebfact I'd have no problems with ANVs but if they are to be no aliases we must accept the odd poor 'fit' ANV like Steve Smart's might end up.

hafler3o
accept the odd poor 'fit' ANV like Steve Smart's might end up.

On similar occasions (e.g. Anne-Marie Suenram ⋉, Greg Calbi ⚾, Meredith Brooks ♀), we have decided to not use the symbol as ANV but to credit the actual PAN in the likes of Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching ♀] - Meredith Brooks (2).

sebfact
hafler3oaccept the odd poor 'fit' ANV like Steve Smart's might end up.On similar occasions (e.g. Anne-Marie Suenram ⋉, Greg Calbi ⚾, Meredith Brooks ♀), we have decided to not use the symbol as ANV but to credit the actual PAN in the likes of Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching ♀] - Meredith Brooks (2).

Those are very poor fits! Seems you have this all thought out so are you looking for some form of 'go ahead'?

hafler3o
Seems you have this all thought out so are you looking for some form of 'go ahead'?

I just want to make sure we're consistent. Personally, I could live with both but on Discogs also an erstwhile certainty could become outdated...

Bumpety-bump.... shall we get rid of thes symbol PAN in favour of ANVs?

sebfact
shall we get rid of thes symbol PAN in favour of ANVs?

I'm happy to abandon aliases that are symbols for engineer etchings, especially as some symbols are not searchable by Discogs search, and some appear differently on different devices; after a software update a few months ago, ⚾ now appears on my machine as a red-and-white graphic of a baseball, which is not representative of the symbol etched by that engineer.

I'm not sure, however, that ANV is appropriate where the symbols are not variations on the PAN. The existing solution seems best for such cases:

sebfact
credit the actual PAN in the likes of Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching ♀] - Meredith Brooks (2).

sebfact
shall we get rid of thes symbol PAN in favour of ANVs?

Definitely we should get rid of those PANs.
I'd use ANVs only for initials.
Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching (symbol)] for symbols.

andrenafulva
⚾ now appears on my machine as a red-and-white graphic of a baseball, which is not representative of the symbol etched by that engineer.

It certainly is representative of that engineers scribing. Calbi was a huge baseball fan. It should never be used as any kind of alias, however. Nor should any other scribble scribing in runouts. It shouldn't even be an ANV. It is acceptable as part of the runout data. When entering as mastering credit, it should be listed as Mastered By [Runout Etch ⚾] - Greg Calbi

p.s., the scribing was not always indicative of lacquer cutting. There must be great discrimination when using that discernment.

mossinterest
Mastered By [Runout Etch ⚾] - Greg Calbi

This was first proposed about a year ago, I think? I agreed with it then, and I agree with it now. It solves the PAN / ANV question nicely, except in the case of "Ω (2) (unknown)", where the actual engineer remains a mystery. In that case, seems we should continue use of the symbol until the identity of the mystery man (or woman) is discovered.

Showbiz_Kid
in the case of "Ω (2) (unknown)", where the actual engineer remains a mystery. In that case, seems we should continue use of the symbol until the identity of the mystery man (or woman) is discovered.

Yah, I don't know what else can be done about unknowns like that.

Showbiz_Kid
Mastered By [Runout Etch ⚾] - Greg Calbi

This was first proposed about a year ago, I think?

It was approved by management as the acceptable way. I don't have time to dig it out. They'd just have to trust me, that's the way we've been doing it for the Gardner flower [❀], etc.

mossinterest
It certainly is representative of that engineers scribing. Calbi was a huge baseball fan.

The etching might be intended to represent a baseball. What I meant was that the image I now see on my screen since the (very annoying) software update no longer looks like the etching. I used to see a black Unicode character representing a baseball, which did look like the etching. I now see a coloured, 3-D picture of a baseball, which doesn't look much like the etching, although both are representations of the same object.

Anyway, we agree on no PAN and no ANV, so that's good.

Showbiz_Kid
the case of "Ω (2) (unknown)", where the actual engineer remains a mystery.

Agree; we will have to continue to use a 'symbol' PAN in such cases.

andrenafulva
I now see a coloured, 3-D picture of a baseball

I agree, that sucks. It looked better raw

Yeh, I know. I bloody hate 'emoji'. It's a violation of my human rights, is what it is.

Thanks for the sympathy, by the way.

andrenafulva
I now see a coloured, 3-D picture of a baseball

Hm, I still see the b/w edition (Windows-Firefox). Would that be a Unicode display settings thing?

sebfact
Would that be a Unicode display settings thing?

I've (as yet) been unable to find a way to change Unicode display settings in this new OS version. I'm reasonably computer-literate; I imagine the majority of s of this site wouldn't even imagine the possibility of changing Unicode display settings.

I agree with using anvs where apliable and Mastered by [Runout etch [Symbol]] where the symbol can not be a anv.

I do wonder if its not better to write what the symbol depicts than using unicode/emojis as they show different on different divices? So it would be Mastered By [runout etch [Baseball]] or the likes. Just a thought.

On unknown engineers i beleve using the symbol as a PAN is the best solution for now, with a profile text explaining that it is a unknown engineer and that if the engineer is discovered the PAN should be changed according to how it is done on other engineers

I've changed a few of my previously entered ANV's of Anne-Marie Suenram from "⋊·MS" to "Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching ⋊·MS] – Anne-Marie Suenram" since ANV's aren't suppose to include Unicode characters.

Her ⋊ etch sometimes looks more like a fancy "A" sometimes lately, though.

Since there are no objections to remove symbol PAN in favour of normal PAN, I will start to transfer the releases.

Thanks! I'll help in time if I can.

Just thought I'd post a link relating to this comment in your opening post:

sebfact
This is a primer for mastering engineers. PAN such as ‡ʢ●◄╣♂╠►●ʡ‡▌ or ω◙◄■║Φ♀Φ║■►◙ω or ₴Ħ∆llΩ₩§ should be discussed elsewhere.

There's a looooong discussion of PANs using Unicode characters as letter substitutes or as purely abstract strings in this thread: 'Vaporwave ≈ΔΣⓈ⊥ɦΞƬIℂƧ≈'.

As I've said many times before, I don't not using unicode symobls (where there is an exact match with the scribing) as aliases, for a number of reasons. The argument that these symbols aren't searchable is in fact not so solid any more - I can indeed search for ♀ and Å, for instance. Furthermore, the first symbols that are returned in a google search for "unicode female symbol" and "unicode Scandinavian A" are ♀ and Å, respectively.

Having an artist listed under their real name makes it no easier to find them in the database than having them listed under a unicode alias, because one still has to search on the unicode symbol to find them. Plus my usual arguments, e.g. non-Roman artist names and titles are even more difficult to search in discogs, yet they're actively promoted by the guidelines (RSG §1.8.1), bla bla blah puke.

timhorton69
The argument that these symbols aren't searchable is in fact not so solid any more - I can indeed search for ♀ and Å, for instance.

Sure, you and I know how to do this, and probably most others on this thread; that's not the real issue. The searchability issue is more in play for less-skilled s, who may not know how to even find the Unicode symbol they want to search for. And that's probably the large majority of s.

timhorton69
Plus my usual arguments, e.g. non-Roman artist names and titles are even more difficult to search in discogs, yet they're actively promoted by the guidelines

Which makes perfect sense, because s in Russia, Asia, Slavic nations etc. have keyboards and language code sets already installed for their native languages. It's not like they have to go searching for the Unicode every time they want to enter an "Ђ" - it's just there on the keyboard.

Showbiz_Kid
Sure, you and I know how to do this, and probably most others on this thread; that's not the real issue. The searchability issue is more in play for less-skilled s, who may not know how to even find the Unicode symbol they want to search for. And that's probably the large majority of s.

Such s should learn how to use their computers.

JT_X
Such s should learn how to use their computers.

Nice. Kind of along the lines of "Let them eat cake!" -- Marie Antoinette

Showbiz_Kid
Nice. Kind of along the lines of "Let them eat cake!" -- Marie Antoinette

Bad comparison. It's a matter of laziness. I don't know anyone with access to Discogs who doesn't also have access to information of how to use Unicode symbols.

You're confusing laziness for lack of knowledge. Not every is fully literate and top-rank. And you can't expect them to be.

I'm not saying that we need to dumb Discogs down to accomodate the lowest common denominator, but we do need to try to be as -friendly as possible - especially for n00bs who often bloody their noses on the steep learning curve.

#1 comment among new s here: "Boy is this place unfriendly."

Showbiz_Kid
You're confusing laziness for lack of knowledge. Not every is fully literate and top-rank. And you can't expect them to be.

In an age where knowledge is so easy to obtain, anyone (with normal mental abilities) choosing not to do so is lazy. I'm not confused at all.

No, but you've certainly got your nose in the air.

I just found this thread. After seeing an update to sebfact — for etchings where it's basically an initial inside a circle/shape (example: ®) — maybe it would be advantageous to just use the letter for the ANV, rather than try to imitate the shape that surrounds it?

I could be wrong, but I think Richard Finch (if that makes sense?).

I'm ok with basically using whatever symbol we can find in the BaOI that looks closest to the etching because I think it's helpful for visualization purposes. However, I don't think it works well when we start to add random characters to linked fields especially because we don't have a common unicode library to draw from (example: one person might use wikipedia, another person might use the Mac menubar character palette thing).

It was previously "® (2)" but all of them were changed to an ANV of Richard Finch without discussion. [ed Trademark] is not an ANV of Richard Finch. I don't think symbols should be used to approximate drawn images like letters in circles either, how have we handled this sort of thing generally?

It is allowed to use symbols that somehow represent the symbol. Need to dig out that statement from nik.

uzumaki
without discussion

Oh, really? No.

uzumaki
[ed Trademark] is not an ANV of Richard Finch.

But the Alias was OK, ic.

sebfact
Oh, really?

- you didn't mention any discussion, no submission notes on your edits, just a link to a forum thread that you edited yourself, the least you can do is use submission notes to explain what your submission is, that's what they are for.

sebfact
But the Alias was OK, ic.

I said the alias was not OK as well: "I don't think symbols should be used to approximate drawn images like letters in circles either"

Appreciate this is not moving the discussion forward, keep up all the good work on the runout forum thread but using symbols that somehow represent the symbol is not exact and accurate, it is inaccurate and gives the wrong information, I don't agree with doing that but dig out Nik's statement by all means.

Came here because of an edit done on ® (2) / Finch. I 100% back the removal of symbols as PAN because even though I have normal mental abilities and know how to find and apply symbols, it was a nuisance. Much easier using them as ANVs, for sure.

I do recall specifically, nik stated it is fine to use whatever unicode closely enough represents scribings in runouts. I don't recall a ruling on using unicode for alias or PAN. In fact, to the contrary, I only discussions where it was discouraged to use unicode as PANs

Coincidence_vs_Fate
I 100% back the removal of symbols as PAN because even though I have normal mental abilities and know how to find and apply symbols, it was a nuisance.

LOL! NIcely stated.

uzumaki
[ed Trademark] is not an ANV of Richard Finch.

That's basically how I feel. Comparatively, if his name was Richard Pound and he had etched R£, then I think it would probably be ok to enter the £ symbol into the field as part of the ANV.

sebfact
Need to dig out that statement from nik.

There are a bunch, but here are a few:

nik
If the usage of the symbol is congruent with it's meaning, and was used on the release, then there wouldn't be a problem, but if we take Unicode symbols to mean things other than that which they are designed for, we break the system.

(nik)

nik
The general method is if the text is intended to be read in English (or whatever language), then it should be entered as such. Basically, where letters have been substituted with other letters or symbols, we enter them as they are intended to be read, not as they are

(thread)

nik
It depends on whether there is any meaning behind the symbol or not, I think.

So: where there is not any known specific meaning behind the symbol, and there is a close Unicode equivalent (for example, a five pointed star to replace a seven pointed star), the Unicode equivalent can be used, with an explanation of the replacement in the notes

(thread)]

nik
Unicode symbols should not be entered for letter substitution.

A more recent thread with a nik and Diognes post

So, Ⓡ would not be allowed but Ⓖ would be.
Or does that ultimately mean that we must substitute every circled letter with a normal capital letter? For years nobody cared about them being Alias / PAN and now we get rid of them altogether. Well done.

I suspect that Nik didn't envisage this specific case when making his statement. Otherwise we could end up with ANVs like RⒾCⒽⒶRⒹ for someone who writes their name with each letter in a circle.

The Unicode characters for circled R, C and P are different from those for 'ed', 'copyright' and 'phonographic copyright'. Viz:
® / Ⓡ
© / Ⓒ
Ⓟ / ⓄⓅ
(I had to leave circled O in front of the circled P, otherwise my computer 'helpfully' changed it to a Ⓟ symbol.)

There's a full list on my profile page, along with a load of other symbols. If we try to enforce use of the 'circled R' symbol rather than the 'ed' symbol, I'm sure Nik will be happy.

andrenafulva
There's a full list on my profile page,

Naughty boy, iƒpi is not endorsed :-)

andrenafulva
The Unicode characters for circled R, C and P are different from those for 'ed', 'copyright' and 'phonographic copyright'.

I didn't even know those existed!

sebfact
So, Ⓡ would not be allowed but Ⓖ would be. Or does that ultimately mean that we must substitute every circled letter with a normal capital letter?

One issue I have is that Discogs hasn't given us a common resource for unicode symbols. This is problematic for two reasons. First, let's say you edit a release and added "Ⓡ" (U+24C7) as an ANV. I edit another release with the same etching, but add "®" (U+00AE) because it's the only R in a circle character I know. X edits a third release. They're smarter than me, so they don't add 00AE, but because they can't find 24C7, they add "ⓡ" (U+24E1). Similarly, some s just add "(R)", some add "R", "⒭" (U+24AD), or etc. Other s analogize it's similar to Richard Finch's profile would have a half dozen ANVs for the same symbol plus the releases where the credit is derived from the same R circle etching, but the contributor has just entered it as "Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etch ®]".

Second, there are some issues Fauni-Gena can explain this way better than me).

In short, if we keep it as simple as possible, we will be able to add these credits with greater consistency and better accuracy.

sebfact
Naughty boy, iƒpi is not endorsed :-)

Oops, I forgot to remove that when that ruling was made. Will correct it now!

berothbr
Second, there are some issues (example) with how Discogs displays symbols, punctuation, etc., when used in conjunction with certain languages, browsers, OSs, etc. ( Fauni-Gena can explain this way better than me).

Maybe, maybe not. The example I gave in the thread you linked refers to mixing right-to-left and left-to-right languages which does create special challenges. When a character is misplaced when typed in (i.e.: parentheses) you need to add an RTL character (CTTL+SHIFT+u200) to tell the browser/OS to place it at the end of the line on the left.

The other problems we have on Discogs with Hebrew, Arabic, Farsi, Yiddish, etc... are display issues. As I wrote in the other thread:

There are other issues which are Discogs bugs. The one that bothers me most is that I can't put Hebrew in brackets in a credit and have any chance of it displaying correctly. The net result is that I enter a standard credit [translated credit] when those two don't exactly match.

What you get is a jumble. It is a longstanding Discogs bug.

There are symbols and diacritical marks used in Hebrew that just don't exist on non-Hebrew keyboards. Often people, even some Israeli submitters, use a close equivalent which isn't technically correct. I often see an apostrophe used in place of a geresh: ׳ or quotes in place of geryashim: ״ When I see it I don't edit since anyone who can read Hebrew will understand the words anyway.

If a release has Hebrew vowels (niqqudot), which are diacritical marks not separate characters, that's a separate challenge. Unless you have a Hebrew keyboard and have your locale set to Hebrew in your operating system you have enter the letter and the niqqud separately and then combine them into a single character. I've found most submitters just don't bother. While leaving off the niqqudot is common in Hebrew it does mean that the words are not as on release. A dagesh (a dot placed into a letter) is used to indicate pronunciation. Those present exactly the same challenge as niqqudot. For example, the Hebrew letter bet ב can be pronounced live a B or a V in English. Adding a dagesh in the middle of the bet makes it clear that the harder sound, the B, is used. Habanot Nechama used a dagesh in the spelling of their self-titled album: הבּנות נחמה

There are similar challenges in many other languages but Hebrew and Yiddish are what I know so I can explain it. I suspect my explanations are as clear as mud to some people.

berothbr
half dozen ANVs for the same symbol

Already the case today but manageable by a frequent ANV assessment. I have done that for several artists already and never got any headwind.

berothbr
One issue I have is that Discogs hasn't given us a common resource for unicode symbols.

Indeed. And yet, this could be achieved by the PAN profiles, where the respective letters are featured and could be copied into the BAOI and for the ANV - for even more consistency :-). And there also is the Runout Thread, where the adequate letter symbols would be added for the ANVs as well - with an explanation on how to choose them properly.

Interesting, what recently stated, FWIW...

sebfact
Interesting, what Diognes_The_Fox just recently stated, FWIW...

Eep.

What to do now with the Richard Finch releases crediting ® (as for ed)?
Use Ⓡ (as for circled R) or R?

I have changed them and want to heal that open wound for good now...

If Ⓡ is as available to computers as ®, they could be changed to save argument. I suspect that the circled R is going to show up as 'unknown character' on a lot more machines than will the 'ed' symbol.

I think an old statement by nik without an equivalent statement in the guidelines is too little on which to make major changes, especially given that he has stepped down from the database management role and we are now supposed to make decisions as a community. I would be inclined to leave things as they are while more discussion takes place.

andrenafulva
I think an old statement by nik without an equivalent statement in the guidelines is too little on which to make major changes, especially given that he has stepped down from the database management role and we are now supposed to make decisions as a community. I would be inclined to leave things as they are while more discussion takes place.

Well said.

sebfact
What to do now with the Richard Finch releases crediting ® (as for ed)?
Use Ⓡ (as for circled R) or R?

I think it's safer and easier to just use an R in the ANV field. However, until we hear something definitive from Discogs, the decision will just be predicated on our personal preferences.

berothbr
the decision will just be predicated on our personal preferences.

Yeah, and yet, I want to avoid unnecessary back and forth editing. Wonder if Diognes_The_Fox had a chance to discuss that already as the community seems "undecided"...

mossinterest
It certainly is representative of that engineers scribing. Calbi was a huge baseball fan. It should never be used as any kind of alias, however. Nor should any other scribble scribing in runouts. It shouldn't even be an ANV. It is acceptable as part of the runout data. When entering as mastering credit, it should be listed as Mastered By [Runout Etch ⚾] - Greg Calbi

I think this might be a good approach towards these more abstract runout etchings overall. As long as we're clear and consistent with their application, it should work out okay.

Worth a guideline update?

Thanks, Brent.

Diognes_The_Fox
more abstract runout etchings

Would Δ or ΔM, Ω, π, Ⓡ fall under this as well?

sebfact
Would Δ or ΔM, Ω, π, Ⓡ fall under this as well?

In my opinion (stated above, repeating here in case Brent doesn't read the whole thread), we can and should use ANVs when the symbol relates to the PAN in some way.

Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony)
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM
ΔM (Dave Moyssiadis) = DM in Greek characters
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M
® (Richard Finch) = R in a circle
All of these should be made ANVs.

From the list, the exceptions are Å (Steve Smart), and Ω (whose artist is unknown). The first should, in my opinion, be added as Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching Å] - Ω (2)

andrenafulva
Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony)
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM
ΔM (Dave Moyssiadis) = DM in Greek characters
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M
® (Rick O'Neil and Richard Finch) = R in a circle
All of these should be made ANVs.

Would you agree, Diognes_The_Fox?

I've found another case: Sam Feldman has ANVs sƒ, s𝑓 and 𝑠𝑓.

Given that we've been told by staff not to use the symbol ƒ when it appears in SID codes as iƒpi, we should probably not use it as an ANV either (we've just had a discussion ing other non-letter symbols in ANVs), so I suggest changing the ANV to sf. The last two ANVs have symbols I can't even see on my computer.

What say you?

andrenafulva
I suggest changing the ANV to sf

+1.

ƒ ("Latin small letter f with hook") exists in Unicode because it is used in the written Ewe language of Ghana & Togo, and in its italic form, it is a "florin symbol" used for currency like the old Dutch guilder. Fonts usually opt for the italic glyph by default, which makes it tempting to use for Sam Feldman's way of writing the letter f. I would rather we just interpret it as the basic functional letter f, rather than the florin/guilder/Ewe ƒ.

Agree with treat unicode symbols and other unsearchable characters as ANV for mastering/laquer cut roles. Those are signatures and not aliases for a different work, however in some cases are fundamental name changes, in behalf of search purposes an ANV it's 100 per cent safe.

Regarding Greg Calbi, I'm still seeing a GC into a circle. I cannot see a baseball sphere.

That's my interpretation. We got different points of view, some contributors here will agree it's a ball and others will see a manuscript circled GC, and a third sector see a circled H (the last two generally are unfamiliar with baseball).

Due to the small size of Greg Calby's signature, and considering the human nature:

So, are we free to decide what we shall use for his runout credit?

1- Baseball ball symbol
2- GC
3- [Circled GC]
4- [Circled H]

Hope the discrepancy do not leads to an edit war.

PS I will search in my fonts the characters I see and post here.

UriahCego
3- [Circled GC]
4- [Circled H]

Not these, please. No explanations in Runout fields.

andrenafulva
I suggest changing the ANV to sf

Agreed. Will change the Master List. However, we should try to use that symbol in the matrix string.

Is the GL change coming?
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/12489509-Weak-In-The-Presence-Of-Beauty/history#latest

sebfact
we should try to use that symbol in the matrix string.

Absolutely should use the corresponding symbols in the runout strings. I assumed that was a given. Thanks

mossinterest
I assumed that was a given.

Just wanted to reassure myself :-)

sebfact
However, we should try to use that symbol in the matrix string.

mossinterest
Absolutely should use the corresponding symbols in the runout strings.

Are you sure about that? That means that an unknown number of people, including those such as myself using latest versions of OS and browser, will see parts of runout strings as default 'place-holder' characters. Entering 'sf' ensures that everyone can see what letters have been inscribed; it means no one will be confronted with 's[Unicode place-holder box]'.

There are engineers whose inscription is far less visually similar to typed characters than Sam Feldman's, and we represent those signatures by standard typed letters, so why not in this case to ensure that everyone can see what letters are in the runout string? We could add a description of the f in his inscription to his artist page and the runouts list, and there's a photo of his inscription on his artist page, so I don't think there's any need to risk people not being able to read the letter in runout etchings so they we can display an italicised script f there.

We've been banned from entering ƒ in BaOI when it is used in 'ifpi' on CDs, so why is this different? I think it's worth reconsidering the policy at this point.

andrenafulva
so why is this different?

I see your point but so far there haven't been many complaints (at least not towards the matrix thread).

On a different note: Currently the runout thread suggests to use |⁄ǀ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄K or ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄Kling or similar as an ANV of Randy Kling.

Given the recent discussions about "graphism", I wonder if the ANV's should rather be RandyK or RandyKling.
Affected would be 100+ releases...

sebfact
Given the recent discussions about "graphism", I wonder if the ANV's should rather be RandyK or RandyKling.
Affected would be 100+ releases...

Please no. This is a very accurate visual representation and requires no Unicode. I don’t see the benefit to altering it.

Showbiz_Kid
This is a very accurate visual representation and requires no Unicode. I don’t see the benefit to altering it.

Agreed. I'm only concerned with accessibility; so, if an etching uses no characters that would display incorrectly on some s' screens, I see no reason not to use them.

Personally, I would vote for entering ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄Kling in BaOI (to represent his etching as closely as possible) and use an ANV 'Kling', as ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄ǀ⁄|⁄ is not a variant on his name; but I don't think it's critical enough to mass-edit ANVs at this stage.

andrenafulva
Are you sure about that?

When it comes to runout scribings, management has stated any appropriate unicode may be used. I'd say sƒ is right on. Some unicode is detectable in Windows 7, but not 10, and visa versa, depending on java, but that can't be helped. If it is added to the credits as [Runout Etch sƒ] there should be no problem.

There were some unicodes I took issue with a few years ago, like inverted Ω for Utopia Studios harp, but I was overruled by consensus and management, stating it was just fine. I still have a problem with that one.

Diognes_The_Fox
Worth a guideline update?

Small problem/exception to that rule ( Ω (2).

The reason I mention this is that although I agree with Showbiz_Kid in that I don't like to see 'graphisms' in ANV/PAN fields, an absolute ban would not be ideal either.

berothbr
The reason I mention this is that although I agree with Showbiz_Kid in that I don't like to see 'graphisms' in ANV/PAN fields, an absolute ban would not be ideal either.

I think it's not that I absolutely object - just feel standard character set is preferable if possible, for sake of searching.

berothbr
there are a few symbols that we have used as a PAN because we basically know it's for a specific person, but we haven't figured out their actual name. Example: Ω (2).

The reason I mention this is that although I agree with Showbiz_Kid in that I don't like to see 'graphisms' in ANV/PAN fields, an absolute ban would not be ideal either.

To be fair, Ω is a letter – just not a Latin letter – it's not a 'graphism'.

I'm about to have a "graphgasm" XD

Showbiz_Kid
standard character set is preferable if possible, for sake of searching.

+1

andrenafulva
Ω is a letter

In this instance, it's being used, i.e., graphed, to represent an unidentified character it happens to resemble rather than a letter.

do we swimming in opposite directions or is do i misunderstand something?

Dr.SultanAszazin
That is actually explicitly forbidden by the guidelines: no other characters than extra spaces

from another thread
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/785246?page=1#7798589

berothbr
quoting andrenafulva: 'Ω is a letter'

In this instance, it's being used, i.e., graphed, to represent an unidentified character it happens to resemble rather than a letter.

Ah, thanks for that information. In that case, ignore that comment of mine.

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
from another thread
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/785246?page=1#7798589

And baoi description in the baoi description field or in the notes?

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/785246?page=1#7798157

Dr.SultanAszazin
I disagree:
1 The baoi shows the most important information. Whether it is stamped or etched is in the majority of cases no more than an utter detail. Notes are more appropriate

sebfact

andrenafulva
Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony)
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM
ΔM (Dave Moyssiadis) = DM in Greek characters
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M
® (Richard Finch) = R in a circle
All of these should be made ANVs.

Would you agree, Diognes_The_Fox?

Have these been discussed since and has a decision been made on them? If not, can we make a decision now? There's recently been decisions to abandon PANs of initials in favour of full-name PANs when known (the huge mass-edit of Heino Leja comes to mind). Can we now agree to do the same with these 'symbol' PANs when the symbols represent the artist's initials?

In the master list of runout etchings, the instructions are currently:
Lacquer Cut By - Tony Taurins)
Lacquer Cut By - Alan Moy)
Lacquer Cut By - Dave Moyssiadis + ANV ΔM
Lacquer Cut By - Mike Brown (3))
Lacquer Cut By - Rick O'Neil)
Lacquer Cut By - Richard Finch + ANV Ⓡ

So there's an inconsistency in whether to use alias or ANV, and also in which circled R symbol to use for the last two artists. It would be good to get these cleaned up if possible.

My personal view is that in the last two cases, the ANV should be simply R, with the symbol entered in the runout string in BaOI.

The weakest cases are those of Francis DeSouza's Z etching, in which the responses agreed that this should be entered as an ANV of his full name as his name contains that letter, even though it's not one of his initials. So the mood seems to be to use ANVs of the full name where possible.

bump for sebfact

Cool - we're back :-)
Many thanks, nik!

Brief update:

Decided:
Symbols for here).
No ornamental ANVs, such as "∙ Z ∙" (for here).
Neither graphisms in the BAOI (e.g. "५५" for here).
EDIT: Ω (2) - decided - no choice due to unknown PAN.

Still open for discussion:
Steve Smart) - ambiguity: Ångström symbol Å vs. Å (capital letter A with ring above), but both are Unicode symbols.

What was decided for reverse letters in initials again? Specifically the ꟼR of Phillip S. Rodriguez etching.

I originally had his profile state to use [Runout Etching ꟼR] in the credit with his full name - it was changed to name + ANV, but this doesn't seem that it's what we do for reverse letters, but maybe I'm not ing correctly and the search function isn't finding me anything.

leeving
What was decided for reverse letters in initials again? Specifically the ꟼR of Phillip S. Rodriguez etching.

Good question! Can't , really. However, there is RSG §1.9.3 "Transcribing graphic design decisions, such as reverse letters, additional punctuation, letter substitution etc, should be avoided." So, the ANV has to be PR in any case but what to add to the BAOI? Hhmmmm....

sebfact
Good question! Can't , really. However, there is RSG §1.9.3 "Transcribing graphic design decisions, such as reverse letters, additional punctuation, letter substitution etc, should be avoided." So, the ANV has to be PR in any case but what to add to the BAOI? Hhmmmm....

Right. It says don't use it, but it doesn't say to replace it with the correct letter, either.

I get that we do this for PAN's all the time, though.

When I found this initial almost a year ago on Jim Sullivan (3) - U.F.O., I used the [Runout Etching ꟼR] as we use for other symbol etching like [Runout Etching ⋊] – Anne-Marie Suenram. The ⋊ being a substitution for an "A"

As far as the BaOI, don't we use reverse S a lot for Columbia Records Pressing Plant, Santa Maria pressings?

This may need a different thread, tho - as we are moving away from discussing PAN's

IMO symbols and/or monograms that are not easily identified with PANs - ie, initials - should be described on brackets as on

sebfact
credit the actual PAN in the likes of Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching ♀] - Meredith Brooks (2)

(a solution that I’ve never seen before and found very appropriate)

On the other hand, I still have - I confess - a lot of difficulty in transcribing / crediting symbols or monograms that allude to PAN and have nothing similar both in the characters of the traditional keyboard and in the Unicode symbols. Does anyone know an "alphabet" of lowercase letters mixed with the "@" symbol? I know engineers who sign with a "w" inside the "@" and also artists who sign their names with "e", "m" and "z" etc inside the "@" symbol.

lbamaral
Does anyone know an "alphabet" of lowercase letters mixed with the "@" symbol? I know engineers who sign with a "w" inside the "@" and also artists who sign their names with "e", "m" and "z" etc inside the "@" symbol.

Not inside an @ symbol, but would these be better represented by a letter inside a circle? This is probably what the engineer was aiming for, but without removing the stylus from the lacquer to make it easier to inscribe. There's a list of circled letters (among other special characters) on my profile page – I can't take credit for it; I copied it from someone else.

Having said that, if you've identified an etching for a particular engineer, we should probably discuss each case and agree the best way to represent that etching if it's not easily represented by standard keyboard characters.

ps: hello again, everyone! Good to see this thread back in action again.

sebfact
Ω (2)
Δ (alias for Tony Taurins) - maybe Anthony Taurins, so Δ=A?
ΔM (alias for Alan Moy), so Δ=A?
π (alias for Mike Brown (3))
® (alias for Rick O'Neil) - ambiguity: ed sign ® vs. Ⓡ (circled capital letter R), but both are Unicode symbols. However, the symbol is not fully reflecting the runout symbol
Å (3) (Alias for Steve Smart) - ambiguity: Ångström symbol Å vs. Å (capital letter A with ring above), but both are Unicode symbols.

In my opinion (unchanged, so apologies for repeating myself):

Ω (2) must be an alias PAN, because the name of the engineer is unknown.
Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony) = ANV
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM = ANV
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M so my vote is for ANV
® (Steve Smart) no obvious connection between the names so has to be an alias. I vote for using Å (capital letter A with ring above) as the symbol available to more s/devices. It's neither, really; it's more like a pair of splayed legs with a halo. Which Unicode character is used in the PAN?

I have been trying to list and compile the names of Brazilian engineers on the https://www.discogs.sie.com/lists/BR-engineers-technicians/558242 and associate them with the companies or studios where they worked, but it is a difficult job to do due to the lack of information from the period when most of them were in activity and little / poor documentation of the releases they’ve been involved with here on Discogs.
Most Brazilian engineers from the 1960s to 1995 - when vinyl record production ceased - are not identified with symbols or monograms in the matrices but with credits in the technical notes. There are symbols / monograms that I have not yet been able to precisely associate with a name and there are identifiable symbols or monograms, but difficult to transcribe like those of T. Oliveira
My aim is to get for these engineers a symbol similar to their rubrics so that I can inform on their profiles how to credit their releases, something like "Credit "Lacquer Cut [Runout Etching Symbol] - ArtistName" if there is no nominal identification of this engineer in the release"

The @/w engineer is William Carvalho, that has been incorrectly credited with ANVs "@1C" and "ⓤIC"

andrenafulva
Ω (2) must be an alias PAN, because the name of the engineer is unknown.
Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony) = ANV
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM = ANV
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M so my vote is for ANV
® (Rick O'Neil = R in a circle = ANV. We can represent it by R in runouts and add 'circled' to the description to avoid ed symbol/circled R Unicode confusion.
Å (3) (Steve Smart) no obvious connection between the names so has to be an alias. I vote for using Å (capital letter A with ring above) as the symbol available to more s/devices. It's neither, really; it's more like a pair of splayed legs with a halo. Which Unicode character is used in the PAN?

+1 to all! That was easy :-)
The Smart alias is "A with ring above".

EDIT:

lbamaral
Does anyone know an "alphabet" of lowercase letters mixed with the "@" symbol?

I still use https://www.copypastecharacter.com/all-characters
that however won't get you letters within "@"

lbamaral
The @/w engineer is William Carvalho, that has been incorrectly credited with ANVs "@1C" and "ⓤIC"

I would enter either "ⓦC", or "WC" with "W in circle" in the description field. But how to handle that case might be a discussion for its own thread.

lbamaral
Ivan Lisnik, Joaquim Figueira, Jorge Emilio Isaac, Elio Gomes, T. Oliveira

Actually, these do appear to be similar cases:
T. Oliveira – this is surely a stylised TO with two lines above it – the images are shot upside down.

sebfact
Still open for discussion:
Ω (2)

Is there really an alternative?

sebfact
ΔM (alias for Alan Moy), so Δ=A?

If we do this, then we should do the same thing for ΔM (2).

However, this probably needs a separate thread because ΔM (2) are definitely mixed up and will be challenging to untangle.

berothbr
If we do this, then we should do the same thing for Dave Moyssiadis’ ΔM (2).

There's a current thread for this, which is what prompted to get this thread re-opened: see https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/856516

When I look at the example image of ΔM, to me it looks more like a continuous "A" and "M" with a line underneath the A.
A true delta would be written from bottom right, to bottom left, to top, to bottom right, see for example this link, fourth letter
This from a couple of years of education in ancient Greek I had a long time ago (my teacher already said, "you never know where you might need it"....)

So an opening in the bottom left would not occur in a true delta (leaving out the case continuously writing the signature might be difficult when etching it in, this I don't know), but this looks more like he wrote the A and M continously and then added a dash. Would not be a delta how I was taught to write it.

Can anyone who owns any instances of Alan Moy check for non-continuous writing in the bottom left?
And perhaps any person who actually is Greek weigh/be dragged in if this is indeed how a delta would be written?

If so, I propose his ANV would become AM and clarification with the dash below the A / Λ, may look like ΔM)

mrfriso
A true delta would be written from bottom right, to bottom left, to top, to bottom right

Not when I write it! I think that link is only showing you how you can write Greek letters, not how you must write them; and it does give an alternative way to write a delta, starting at bottom left, 'just as in A'.

I'm not saying that Alan Moy's signature is a delta – it's clear to me that he's g his initials – but I don't think you can prove that a triangle isn't a delta from in which order it was scribed.

As to above on Alan Moy, either way, I also agree it's a stylised A and not a Δ so leads to the same result :D
Many other messages were before mine already, which I didn't tag along on, that was because I was busy with some other things, but the proposal by andrenafulva is very consistent, so for

andrenafulva
Ω (2) must be an alias PAN, because the name of the engineer is unknown.
Δ (Tony Taurins) = stylised A (for Anthony) = ANV
ΔM (Alan Moy) = stylised AM = ANV
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M so my vote is for ANV
® (Rick O'Neil = R in a circle = ANV. We can represent it by R in runouts and add 'circled' to the description to avoid ed symbol/circled R Unicode confusion.

+1

However, not yet so much for Å (3) (David Turner (2) (thread instructions say no ANV). So along those lines I propose:
Å, 'logo' for 'A Smart Cut'
Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching Å] - Steve Smart (no ANV)

Maybe there are better ways to reflect it, but I do believe we should regard the Å as related to 'A Smart Cut'

mrfriso
Lacquer Cut By [Runout Etching Å] - Steve Smart (no ANV)

Actually, that's a good point; this method was introduced since this discussion was started, I think. At least, I don't think I was aware of it when the discussion started.

Although this 'Å' etching can, unlike the seagulls, flower and some other etchings, be represented reasonably well by a keyboard character, I think what you propose is the probably best way to handle this etching.

andrenafulva
π (Mike Brown (3)) = probably a stylised M so my vote is for ANV

Actually, there also are a couple of releases with 'MB π', which would rather stand for "MB (at) Pye".
This deserves some more thinking...