[RSG proposal] ASIN numbers should only be used for amazon related products

Hi,

As we will be doing a lot of edits on Japanese releases where often an ASIN number has been added, would like to know if we can remove these numbers. These are normal retail releases that were not made by or exclusively sold by amazon, they have nothing to do with amazon other than that they are listed for sale there.

This was last discussed as part of https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/693089?page=2 where it seems most are agreed ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon. If this is agreed on, we would also like this included in the guidelines:

RSG §5.5. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number. This is a unique identification number assigned by Amazon.com and its partners for product identification within the Amazon.com organization. Please provide submission notes that point to the relevant release on Amazon.

to include

5.5. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number. This is a unique identification number assigned by Amazon.com and its partners for product identification within the amazon.com organization. Please provide submission notes that point to the relevant release on amazon. This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

Any comments welcome, thanks

Edit: changed discussion title to be more specific

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon

This.

ASIN should be removed from BAOI and instead "Exclusive retailer" line should be added to LCCN, and the ASIN added as a cat# for that entry. .

edovan
ASIN should be removed from BAOI and instead "Exclusive retailer" line should be added to LCCN, and the ASIN added as a cat# for that entry. .

Is that your personal opinion or is that in the guidelines?
BTW, I absolutely agree with you. (and when Amazon is not the exclusive retailer for a release, the ASIN be removed altogether IMO)

edovan
"Exclusive retailer" line should be added to LCCN

We could add Chaise Lounge - Second Hand Smoke?

loukash
jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon
This.

Agree with loukash here.

Should be decided on a case to case basis. Some japanese pressings has asins. Try googling B000LZ54G4 for example.

Internaut
Some japanese pressings has asins.

are these releases manufactured by or exclusive to amazon?

^ No, and if you read the old threads where nik commented on that when adins where introduced it is irrelevant. Even if some s don`t like it. The only purpose of adins is to link the Amazon releases to Discogs releaes: https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/forums/topic/280496#2990127

https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/forums/topic/280496#2990127

That is a 4 year old discussion, and what we read from "The purpose is to link Discogs releases with Amazon ones" is that amazon releases are releases by amazon, not the stock they have for sale in general

These Japanese releases are no different to the others, if not made by or exclusive to amazon, it does not need to get linked.

if you read the most recent reference: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/693089?page=2#6937915 , you can see that staff is considering this.

Internaut
^ No, and if you read the old threads where nik commented on that when adins where introduced it is irrelevant. Even if some s don`t like it. The only purpose of adins is to link the Amazon releases to Discogs releaes: https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/forums/topic/280496#2990127

maybe or maybe not...

sometimes 1 ASIN was used for more than 1 specific version (or even totally different releases) as i understand it from previous discogs threads...

in any case i think

jansenENjanssen
his number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

seems right (of course also if it's on other formats)

JeroenG8
Is that your personal opinion or is that in the guidelines?

Oh sorry, I forgot the "IMHO"..
it's sort of a personal interpretation of the guidelines of how to use the LCCN for Amazon specific releases along with a personal desire to get rid of the ASIN field in the BAOI.. :-).

jansenENjanssen
This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

+1

jansenENjanssen
This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

Fully agree. Thank you!

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon.

another +1

Internaut
Try googling B000LZ54G4 for example.

I did and found this as the result: https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AA%E3%83%96%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AA%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3-%E7%B4%99%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A3%E3%82%B1%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E4%BB%95%E6%A7%98-%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B5%E3%83%90%E3%82%B9/dp/B000LZ54G4
The barcode of that item leads to http://www-b.billboard-japan.com/goods/detail/224008 which shows the catalog number as POCE-1099

So which release are you actually talking about ?

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon.

Another +1

The fact is... ASIN is a very well recognized and used format across the WWW as well as data bases and archive keeping Apps from CD Pedia/ CD Collectorz/ Doghouse / MusicBrainz / MusicStack and many many more..

If its a tool that is respected and recognized, therefore it should be adapted to enable those parties to benefit from Discogs Extended Databases instead of ISOLATING them and Alienating them away from Discogs which is not in our interest .

The guidelines do not give any indication that ASINs should only be added when meeting some arbitrary criteria. Might some releases end up with more than one ASIN? Possibly. Might one ASIN apply to more than one version of a release? Sometimes. So what? Just ignore them if you like. If Nik said 4 years ago the reason for their introduction in the BaoI, do you think that the age of time will have retroactively changed that reason?

jansenENjanssen
"The purpose is to link Discogs releases with Amazon ones" is that amazon releases are releases by amazon, not the stock they have for sale in general

In the same sentence he refers to Discogs releases and Amazon releases. If the Amazon ones have to be released by Amazon, what are the Discogs releases; released by Discogs? No, both are just releases listed on the respective sites.

darkwaves
The guidelines do not give any indication that ASINs should only be added when meeting some arbitrary criteria.

Yep.
And we want to change that.

darkwaves
So what?

We do not catalog data that are not integral part of a release.

darkwaves
do you think that the age of time will have retroactively changed that reason?

We all should still be living on trees and picking ants with a wooden stick. :P

As this is already moving into a discussion about changing guidelines may I point you out towards this thread that tries to establish a working system for Guidelines change:

"Guidelines: community guided changes and additions"

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/719376

Sadly we haven't seen any involvement so far from Discogs staff :-(

OneObuyan
ASIN is a very well recognized and used format across the WWW

The sites you gave as example, what do any of these have to do with the discogs database? None of them are reliable sources for anything to begin with.

darkwaves
If the Amazon ones have to be released by Amazon, what are the Discogs releases; released by Discogs? No, both are just releases listed on the respective sites.

Think you are completely missing the point with this comment. Apples and oranges. amazon is a sales site, discogs database is a database.

ChrisEfterklang
As this is already moving into a discussion about changing guidelines

The discussion IS to change the guideline ;-)

jansenENjanssen
to include
5.5. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number. This is a unique identification number assigned by Amazon.com and its partners for product identification within the amazon.com organization. Please provide submission notes that point to the relevant release on amazon. This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

what good is a database if no one wants to use it as a reference. keeping ASIN in there only adds to the database and doesn't subtract from it.. After all its used by all of us, and not some unrelated 3rd party or aliens to the music industry, particularly to those selling and buying, hence they ultimately come to Discogs to determine if the Album they wish to acquire comes in other Formats, pre-releases, special editions, and the like.
I would like to see everyone From Recording Studios to Audiophile collectors using Discogs, but likewise Discogs needs to use there references as well plunged into the Database, making it the most comprehensive out there period!

jansenENjanssen
The discussion IS to change the guideline ;-)

But that won't happen cause there is no real system in place to get that done.

OneObuyan
what good is a database if no one wants to use it as a reference

Huh?

Which "one" is that proverbial "no one" you're talking about? :P

OneObuyan
I would like to see everyone From Recording Studios to Audiophile collectors using Discogs, but likewise Discogs needs to use there references as well plunged into the Database, making it the most comprehensive out there period!

Pardon my ignorance, but a third party online store ID has nothing to do with the database integrity as intended whatsoever.

Unless that data actually appears on the release that is being cataloged.

OneObuyan
what good is a database if no one wants to use it as a reference. keeping ASIN in there only adds to the database and doesn't subtract from it.. After all its used by all of us, and not some unrelated 3rd party or aliens to the music industry, particularly to those selling and buying, hence they ultimately come to Discogs to determine if the Album they wish to acquire comes in other Formats, pre-releases, special editions, and the like.

You are mixing up 2 things there: database and marketplace. You believe we should be adding numbers that have nothing to do with a release: not the artist, not the label, not anything involved on a release to make it 'easier' to find for buyers? The whole point is that we can add very detailed unique releases here, and adding an unrelated general number from a commercial website to these releases is not adding to a release in any manner or form. It is 'false' release information in our eyes.

jansenENjanssen
. It is 'false' release information in our eyes.

But its not miss leading in any way as everyone knows what an ASIN is. ASIN is very much ubiquitous!

jansenENjanssen
This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

Did you mean as in the one discussed previously in this thread: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/339993

ChrisEfterklang
But that won't happen cause there is no real system in place to get that done.

We thought that when there is enough consensus on something, the usual practice is to the staff via a request and they react in the discussion, at least this is what we have seen before on other discussions when researching. As https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/693089?page=2#6937915
"Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Any objections?"
the way is already paved.

OneObuyan
But its not miss leading in any way as everyone knows what an ASIN is. ASIN is very much ubiquitous!

It is misleading when amazon pages rarely mention the actual release cat#, or barcode, and never mention a pressing credit, matrix number or anything else relevant making a release unique. Even the images added on amazon are often not of the actual releases that the page is selling. For any types of information, amazon really is not at all reliable, including release dates which we notice often quote from there (and proven incorrect by others).

OneObuyan
Did you mean as in the one discussed previously in this thread

That is an amazon release, yes, manufactured by Amazon.com kydc

The ASIN number is a number asssigned to a release as an aid to their automated inventory and distribution system. They are no different to a retailer adding their own barcode sticker to products.
They have no relevance to a release in the database, except in cases where they are produced and retailed exclussively by Amazon.
Adding a stock number purely obtained from a third party website and one which is not physically on the the release is incorrect. If the ASIN number is on a sticker applied to an item purchased from Amazon, it is a post manufacture variation and again not valid on this database.
Submissions containing ASIN numbers are often suggestive of websubs being made.

Agreed, ASIN should only be entered if release is produced and retailed exclusively by Amazon.

saf7670
If the ASIN number is on a sticker applied to an item purchased from Amazon, it is a post manufacture variation and again not valid on this database.

I'd agree with this. +1

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon.

+1

edovan
ASIN should be removed from BAOI and instead "Exclusive retailer" line should be added to LCCN, and the ASIN added as a cat# for that entry. .

another idea which could work, +1

OneObuyan
everyone knows what an ASIN is.

i only know what it is 'cause it got added to the BAOI section. never had seen it before, never have used it since.

jansenENjanssen
"The purpose is to link Discogs releases with Amazon ones"

which is a weak reason i think. why would you want to link discogs to amazon? you can't click the asin and be redirected to the corresponding amazon page, why would any site want to drive away potential customers in such fashion anyways? and people who would search an artist and release title on amazon to find the asin number to then perform a google search to find the same item listed on other sites like discogs - is just ridiculous. its dumb, who would function like that? why wouldn't they just search the artist and release title on google? i can think of only one who claims to have used asins in such a manner, and they have a long and strong history of being an idiotic contrarian, so...

OneObuyan
After all its used by all of us,

I never used it.

OneObuyan
everyone knows what an ASIN is

I never heard of it, until I saw it here at Discogs.... and I actually still don't know what it really is and what it's good for.

PabloPlato
jansenENjanssen"The purpose is to link Discogs releases with Amazon ones"

which is a weak reason i think. why would you want to link discogs to amazon?

I would like to link the releases on Discogs to www.bol.com . Can we please make this possible?
(translated: I agree it's a weak reason :-) )

jansenENjanssen
We thought that when there is enough consensus on something, the usual practice is to the staff via a request and they react in the discussion, at least this is what we have seen before on other discussions when researching.

Thing is that staff is increasingly moving away from managing the Guidelines and retreating to just the technical aspects of running Discogs it seems. Only superficial things get changed (adding credit roles seems to be getting done quicker) but essential / structural things seem to take longer and longer. Also, consensus based on just a few responses in a Forum thread doesn't seem to be representative enough. That is why I am suggesting the implementation of a thorough Guidelines management system.

PabloPlato
i can think of only one who claims to have used asins in such a manner, and they have a long and strong history of being an idiotic contrarian

Pretty sure we know who you mean ;-) If it is that member, we have some Canadian releases they submitted with the ASIN numbers added, and reading the histories of those... These releases were some of the ones that made us start this discussion, also the many Japanese releases we have with an ASIN number added where we would like to update/correct certain information (where often the description field has amazon.co.jp added for ASIN, is that even allowed to use a URL in a description field for identifiers?)

PabloPlato


which is a weak reason i think. why would you want to link discogs to amazon? you can't click the asin and be redirected to the corresponding amazon page, why would any site want to drive away potential customers in such fashion anyways?

Site like these do, and they are becoming very popular (don't shot the messenger) This is one example.. we need to up our game : http://musicbrainz.org/release/10dd4280-fe6c-33bd-8f19-0c40f305c774

PabloPlato
and people who would search an artist and release title on amazon to find the asin number to then perform a google search to find the same item listed on other sites like discogs - is just ridiculous. its dumb, who would function like that?

Collectors & Audiophile search that way! we scour the planet to find what we are looking for.

PabloPlato
why wouldn't they just search the artist and release title on google?

That is the problem in itself, Google searches do not return results pointing to Discogs 70% of the time, it only appears to you like that, because Googles is learning from your history, which is not the case when a general independent search hit is generated by regular s.

JeroenG8
I would like to link the releases on Discogs to www.bol.com

We just ordered a CD from there and were going to argue we don't add the bol.com number (or any other big commercial site), though it is the same principle as an ASIN.

ChrisEfterklang
Thing is that staff is increasingly moving away from managing the Guidelines and retreating to just the technical aspects of running Discogs it seems

As we mentioned before, one staff member seems open to this change in the guidelines, they seem to be active here and there in the forums, it is just adding a few words to a guideline to make it clearer. Should not be a big effort on the technical side.

OneObuyan
Collectors & Audiophile search that way!

I am a collector and

JeroenG8
I never used it.

ChrisEfterklang
Sadly we haven't seen any involvement so far from Discogs staff :-(

there's a lot going on in the background. I'm not ready yet to present any solutions as I am still analyzing data and looking at options.

What I am basically looking at for a guideline update thread:

1) First post in the thread shows the old guidelines and the new proposed ones with links to relevant examples.
2) Allow a period of a week or two to allow people to voice positions on the subject matter.
3) Allow another period of a week or two to allow people to vote yay or nay on the proposal, taking into consideration comments.
4) If an agreed upon percentage is met (80%?), staff is notified and the guidelines updated as necessary.

Another leg of this process is to break forum decisions out of the forums and document them in an organized manner in Reference. I think this would eliminate some of our collective frustrations and help standardize best practices. I intend to get that project started next week, workload pending.

Also I swear I've had some choice wording on ASIN usage in an old thread.

OneObuyan
: http://musicbrainz.org/release/10dd4280-fe6c-33bd-8f19-0c40f305c774

External links

DE: B001R1DK5I

Release group external links

Discogs
Musik-Sammler
BBC Music
Q1025928
en: All I Ever Wanted (album)

None of those are official sources for release information,

OneObuyan
we need to up our game

by linking non-official sites that have nothing to do with the release artists, labels or any other relevant information? BBC link is even for a review, completely irrelevant to release information entered there.

We thought that sticking to release facts was the objective of discogs as a database, not to promote huge multinational companies by linking their inventory numbers here. If somebody prefers how a site like musicbrainz operates, maybe they should be member there instead?

I have never seen Amazon link a release to an external seller or site which isn't an Amazon sponsor for that item.#
To claim that any retailer actively encourages potential customers to visit a rival retailers site is ridiculous.

Can OneObuyan explain where on the release Lene - Play With Me is the ASIN , I cannot find it anywhere on the release?
Do we now just add any retailers stock code to Discogs?

steve.fletcher
Do we now just add any retailers stock code to Discogs?

Its there in the Submission fields... I didn't invent it!

jansenENjanssen

We thought that sticking to release facts was the objective of discogs as a database, not to promote huge multinational companies by linking their inventory numbers here. If somebody prefers how a site like musicbrainz operates, maybe they should be member there instead?

Any Database is only as good as its usefulness, be it to little old me, or even to Amazon (mind you if marketed presented correctly).

We all have Discogs interest at heart as I have been stating all along.. I agree lets separate the FACTS from the EXTERNAL links, but have them there none the less.

That's all I am going to say on the subject.
Cheers,

Thanks Diognes_The_Fox for commenting here.

Diognes_The_Fox
What I am basically looking at for a guideline update thread:
1) First post in the thread shows the old guidelines and the new proposed ones with links to relevant examples.

jansenENjanssen
RSG §5.5. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number. This is a unique identification number assigned by Amazon.com and its partners for product identification within the Amazon.com organization. Please provide submission notes that point to the relevant release on Amazon.

to include

5.5. ASIN is the Amazon Standard Identification Number. This is a unique identification number assigned by Amazon.com and its partners for product identification within the amazon.com organization. Please provide submission notes that point to the relevant release on amazon. This number should only be applied to releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon.

examples for CDrs:
Chaise Lounge - Second Hand Smoke

examples for digital releases:
maybe somebody could help us find some examples where entered info is correct? (the few we checked all need changes)

examples for digital releases:
maybe somebody could help us find some examples where entered info is correct? (the few we checked all need changes)

I believe this to be a true example: https://www.discogs.sie.com/Lady-Gaga-Born-This-Way/release/3140350

USB memory stick

OneObuyan
steve.fletcher Do we now just add any retailers stock code to Discogs?
Its there in the Submission fields... I didn't invent it!

There is also a 'Label Code' field, but we don't add a label code if there is none present on the release.....

I don't believe we should enter other retailers stock codes info if it is not officially printed on the disc or artwork.

JeroenG8
There is also a 'Label Code' field, but we don't add a label code if there is none present on the release.....

+1

The whole existence of ASIN field always amazed me as the premise of Discogs is documenting a release as it is and an ASIN is nowhere present on any release.

ChrisEfterklang
The whole existence of ASIN field always amazed me as the premise of Discogs is documenting a release as it is and an ASIN is nowhere present on any release.

My take on it was that it was a prelude to a possible tie-in with Amazon that never happened...

An issue I see with the random adding of Amazons ASIN number is that there is no way of establishing the exact release that it has been assigned to. Often releases have minor variations in artwork, Pressing plants etc which make them unique submissions. Adding an ASIN to these without any way to determine if is correct for that release is clearly wrong.
On Amazon you cannot see all the artwork, or the disc images let alone matrix number all of which help determine uniqueness of a release. Therefore adding an ASIN is the same as saying it remotely appears on Amazon website to be a variant of that release, but the exact release cannot be guaranteed. Therefore is an incorrect submission in Discogs where accuracy is required.

For Example Lene - Play With Me to which the ASIN was assigned by OneObuyan

On Amazon there are numerous copies of this release each identical image, yet different ASIN but no way of determining which ASIN applies to the release on Discogs.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Me-Lene/dp/B01KARPQEM/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1471530283&sr=1-4&keywords=Play+With+Me+lene

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Me-Lene/dp/B013GW8LYU/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1471530283&sr=1-3&keywords=Play+With+Me+lene

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lene-Play-With-Me-CD/dp/B0000ARLE1/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1471530283&sr=1-6&keywords=Play+With+Me+lene

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-With-Me-by-Lene/dp/B01G64UOG8/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1471530283&sr=1-9&keywords=Play+With+Me+lene

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lene-Play-Me-CD-2003-06-04/dp/B01H7YF038/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1471530560&sr=1-12&keywords=Play+With+Me+lene

steve.fletcher
An issue I see with the random adding of Amazons ASIN number is that there is no way of establishing the exact release that it has been assigned to. Often releases have minor variations in artwork, Pressing plants etc which make them unique submissions. Adding an ASIN to these without any way to determine if is correct for that release is clearly wrong.

That's exactly how I see it and is the main problem I've got with the ASIN link. They are on different levels. discogs is too detailed in what they consider unique submissions.

Might as well only link Master Releases to Amazon.

In my opinion any ASIN that has been applied to releases has to be incorrect as unable to confirm the exact release that the ASIN is applied to

Agree with this +1

steve.fletcher
For Example Lene - Play With Me to which the ASIN was assigned by OneObuyan

On Amazon there are numerous copies of this release each identical image, yet different ASIN but no way of determining which ASIN applies to the release on Discogs.

Take the Barcode [UPC] enter it in the Amazon search field .. it will take you to the exact CD. Never failed once.
That how I obtain my ASIN's

Not all releases have barcodes on Amazon yet have ASIN numbers... In the example above showing different AMAZON pages which submissions would you apply these 4 ASIN's for? for
Your arguments seem to have more flaws than benefits.

steve.fletcher
In my opinion any ASIN that has been applied to releases has to be incorrect as unable to confirm the exact release that the ASIN is applied to

Fair enough, but doesn't that also apply to cat #s and barcodes, which are often reused for international editions and represses?

My only issue with ASIN is that it's entirely external. Amazon could, in theory, completely change their numbering system tomorrow, thus making ever ASIN in the db wrong.

brunorepublic


Fair enough, but doesn't that also apply to cat #s and barcodes, which are often reused for international editions and represses?

But Cat No's and Barcodes are taken direct from the release not from a third party website. Which makes them more reliable, and able to particular identifiable releases.

steve.fletcher
Not all releases have barcodes on Amazon yet have ASIN numbers... In the example above showing different AMAZON pages which submissions would you apply these 4 ASIN's for? for
Your arguments seem to have more flaws than benefits.

Barcodes are not used in Amazon period. However, when you enter a barcode [UPC] in the search it will present you the correct CD album and ASIN every-time regardless. What I am saying here is simple, accurate, and requires no re-interpretation.

OneObuyan
it will present you the correct CD album and ASIN every-time regardless

So it will show us which of the 20 pressing variants, represses, reissues and artwork differences of a Rolling Stones album with the same barcode for example?

jansenENjanssen
OneObuyanit will present you the correct CD album and ASIN every-time regardless

So it will show us which of the 20 pressing variants, represses, reissues and artwork differences of a Rolling Stones album with the same barcode for example?

Exactly what I am saying !
you cannot determine an exact pressing from ASIN,

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon.

I thought this was the done thing anyway, as I can't imagine any other reason they would be added.
I've only added them on Amazon MP3s and exclusive CDrs, or the very rare occasion an ASIN # is actually printed on the release itself.

FWIW I'd a guideline change.

jansenENjanssen
So it will show us which of the 20 pressing variants, represses, reissues and artwork differences of a Rolling Stones album with the same barcode for example?

Nonsense, that's Discogs job. Amazon will merely group all those variants under one ASIN, which is exactly what is being reflected right now in Discogs Database.
We are not asking it nor are we expecting it to do more. Those of us that utilize it are quite happy with the status que and what little it can do.
ASIN's are all equal in value, and choosing the ones pertaining to CDRs only doesn't making them anymore special then the other ones merely because we say so here at discogs. So then we can notify the world that these are the only ASIN's recognized by us [Discogs], that's ridiculous. After all what do you think Barcodes are? Generated for music only!!
I am for Discogs, many here are for the Database... The two are not the same, we mustn't lose sight of that because we were too narrow minded thinking about the micro details and not the macro big picture here.
A metaphor if you will; If instead of Frank Sinatra , I wrote Blue Eyes, it would be inaccurate data, however, it is also what he is known by... and in Discogs we capture that.. don't we? As a matter of fact we capture everything.. so whats the harm I say, the more the merrier, plus you will never prevent people from calling him that, so you might as well accept it.. Amazon is a Behemoth, lets capture its audience with our accuracy and win them to our advantage.

OneObuyan
and in Discogs we capture that.. don't we?

Because it is mentioned on a release, unlike an ASIN number would which has nothing to do with that release. Your analogy is completely off point here. We have only been here a short time, and even we know you are preaching to the wrong choir with this.

OneObuyan

Amazon will merely group all those variants under one ASIN, which is exactly what is being reflected right now in Discogs Database.
.

You have just shown why ASIN should not be used! The Database is to catalogue all variants and releases to be accurate. Applying a general ASIN to multiple variants defeats that aim !
ASIN should not be used except on Amazon pressed CDR, or Amazon Exclusive releases where they can clearly be identified as a unique release.
If you want accuracy you need to avoid Amazon and using info from their pages... They are only interested in volume sales and not interested at all with accuracy of the items listed within their databases.

OneObuyan
. Amazon will merely group all those variants under one ASIN, which is exactly what is being reflected right now in Discogs Database.
.

This is the point !
ASIN numbers have nothing to do with accurately and as you have acknowledged Amazon group variants under 1 ASIN number.

steve.fletcher
OneObuyan
The Database is to catalogue all variants and releases to be accurate. Applying a general ASIN to multiple variants defeats that aim !

Agree +1

ASIN should only be applied to Amazon pressed CDR's or Amazon Exclusive releases. Applying ASIN to any other general release is wrong !

Q: If Amazon CDRs do not contain IFPI & Matrix data, I move then for removing ASIN's all together, cause they would be construed as Fake and Copy.. I for one would never ever buy one. I don't even make my own CDRs!

There you have it.. so the question now becomes.. Are ASIN's worth keeping then in the first place based on the aspect of its intended use, which is to record CDR's & (God forbid) digital copies?

OneObuyan
cause they would be construed as Fake and Copy

They are licensed releases, all perfectly legal.

OneObuyan
I for one would never ever buy one

Others would, especially since many of them are of out of print releases that are not re-issued on normal CD.

Thanks jansenENjanssen you put up a good argument.
I am sold. I am in.

Cheers

So now that we have that bit of business behind us, perhaps we can address real examples and variations of the same whenever a warning comes up in a submission based on what the systems deems to be an ASIN. And one such example I was personally involved in about a month ago is this Diana Krall DVD-Audio, which has a Cat# resembling that of an ASIN, however its most definitely not an ASIN at all:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/submissions#item=%2Frelease%2F1869339-When-I-Look-In-Your-Eyes%2Fhistory

As for the rest of the Japanese submissions, which maybe a similar case to the one above.. perhaps we should get others input like 'Choan' involved in this conversation, I am confident he has come across a case or 2.
https://www.discogs.sie.com//choan

OneObuyan
perhaps we can address real examples and variations of the same whenever a warning comes up in a submission based on what the systems deems to be an ASIN. And one such example I was personally involved in about a month ago is this Diana Krall DVD-Audio, which has a Cat# resembling that of an ASIN, however its most definitely not an ASIN at all:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/submissions#item=%2Frelease%2F1869339-When-I-Look-In-Your-Eyes%2Fhistory

What is the point you are trying to make with this example?
On a side note: Thank you for pointing out this submission, as your last edit there is not completely correct.
'Bonus Video Clip' is not a valid FTF as there is no DVD-version present without the Bonus Video Clip.
Please remove.

JeroenG8
as your last edit there is not completely correct.

Also NA should not be added as company number, heading should not be used as not present on track listing, and possibly more things (track numbering last track)

edit: Label branding clearly shows Verve Records logo and not The Verve Music Group.

ASIN numbers do not in any way reflect the actual release. As mentioned above, multiple variants would be gathered under one ASIN.
Has anyone ever noticed how with some albums, there are multiple Amazon listings for the same thing? There may be some listings that were previously active, but are "Currently unavailable"; sometimes there are separate Amazon pages for marketplace listings with a single copy for sale and an image ed by the seller (this is extremely common with second hand vinyl - here's just one example); there are also seperate Amazon pages for the same album with different descriptions such as [Import], [Remastered] etc which are somtimes erroneous and almost always pointless as usually marketplace sellers and Amazon themselves will send you any old copy they have, despite the description.
This would mean that there would quite easily be releases on Discogs with multiple different ASINs each.

Take a look at an Amazon search for this album on CD. Two whole pages for one album, and just by looking at the OBI strips in some of the images you can tell that there are multiple listings for the same release.
And yes, each listing has a different ASIN number.

And that is why ASINs should only be used for Amazon exclusive releases (which are actually sold by Amazon themselves).

There seems to be only one advocate of adding Amazon's ASIN number to releases, Amazon employee by any chance?

DevilDinosaur
ASIN numbers do not in any way reflect the actual release. As mentioned above, multiple variants would be gathered under one ASIN.
Has anyone ever noticed how with some albums, there are multiple Amazon listings for the same thing? There may be some listings that were previously active, but are "Currently unavailable"; sometimes there are separate Amazon pages for marketplace listings with a single copy for sale and an image ed by the seller (this is extremely common with second hand vinyl - here's just one example); there are also seperate Amazon pages for the same album with different descriptions such as [Import], [Remastered] etc which are somtimes erroneous and almost always pointless as usually marketplace sellers and Amazon themselves will send you any old copy they have, despite the description.
This would mean that there would quite easily be releases on Discogs with multiple different ASINs each.

Take a look at an Amazon search for this album on CD. Two whole pages for one album, and just by looking at the OBI strips in some of the images you can tell that there are multiple listings for the same release.
And yes, each listing has a different ASIN number.

And that is why ASINs should only be used for Amazon exclusive releases (which are actually sold by Amazon themselves).

Couldn't agree more +1

steve.fletcher
There seems to be only one advocate of adding Amazon's ASIN number to releases

There are a few more, see upthread

As this will be taking a month according to what was mentioned by a staff member, we will keep a tally & update when more + or -

releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon. +1
saf7670

-1
darkwaves

Those that want to move it to LCCN ""ASIN should be removed from BAOI and instead "Exclusive retailer" line should be added to LCCN, and the ASIN added as a cat# for that entry."
JeroenG8 BTW, I absolutely agree with you. (and when Amazon is not the exclusive retailer for a release, the ASIN be removed altogether IMO)

No opinion mentioned for or against
ChrisEfterklang

Not clear what they prefer from comments
brunorepublic

If we missed any, got any wrong or if someone changes their mind, please let us know.

please add me to list in of ASIN ONLY applicable to

releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon. +1

^ as saf7670 said, add me to that list. Thanks.

From what I've gathered, I agree with the majority, here, I believe.

ASIN should not be added at all, except for ... releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs), or digital files exclusive to amazon.

+1

What is the overall consensus on where ASIN should go, for proper Amazon exclusives?

I think Exclusive Retailer is a marketing term, one Amazon really doesn't use. BAOI is the right place for ASIN. I am all in favor of the proposed change with one minor modification: ASIN should only be used on items exclusive to Amazon. That may be mainly or only CDrs and file releases now but that may not be true in the future. Anything where the ASIN points to a unique release produced by Amazon should be fine.

jansenENjanssen
ASIN number should be limited to only files and CDrs exclusively sold and made by amazon

I didn't read the entire thread, but as an FYI to anyone interested, amazon.de had exclusive editions that were not CD-Rs, but pressed CDs made by the original label and sold exclusively at Amazon.

For example: https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/3692881

Diognes_The_Fox
4) If an agreed upon percentage is met (80%?), staff is notified and the guidelines updated as necessary.

My main issue with this is (and I am speaking generally, not in this specific ASIN case) is that if these decisions are made just through a forum discussion a large part of the community, who might have an interest in a change but probably don't know that these kind of changes are open for discussion and input from them and hence almost never go to the forum, are not part of the decision making process. That is why I suggested a slightly different system (which would involve some coding on the part of Discogs) for voting.

Regarding the guideline change at hand: I really don't have a preference where the ASIN should be entered (BAOI or LCCN) but I agree that it only should be used on Amazon exclusive releases and certainly not on general releases.

obs
For example: https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/3692881

You mean a re-package of CD + Maxi? As there are no images to confirm, the digital one added show nothing, how do we know it has anything on the release mentioning exclusive to amazon?

ChrisEfterklang
Diognes_The_Fox4) If an agreed upon percentage is met (80%?), staff is notified and the guidelines updated as necessary.

My main issue with this is (and I am speaking generally, not in this specific ASIN case) is that if these decisions are made just through a forum discussion a large part of the community, who might have an interest in a change but probably don't know that these kind of changes are open for discussion and input from them and hence almost never go to the forum, are not part of the decision making process. That is why I suggested a slightly different system (which would involve some coding on the part of Discogs) for voting.

It is an individual's free choice to use the forum facility, and to participate in discussions which may eventually result in rule changes. If someone doesn't engage then they have to abide by the result set by Discogs after taking into the will of the forum participants. This is the way that Discogs have decided guideline changes should be approached. It would be both time consuming and expensive to mail every member ( and then you would get individuals who still wont respond or engage.)
Using the forums gives all an equal chance to participate. Help and guidelines section repeatedly points to the forums, so there is no reason any member would not be aware of their existence. And it is then their free choice to participate or not.
The current forum discussion prior to member proposed changes being made seems to work well.
I would suggest if you wish to propose a change to the way that Discogs makes amendments to guidelines, you open a separate thread and let people discuss and accept or reject your alternative plan. (Rather ironic really but the only way to make changes).

steve.fletcher
Using the forums gives all an equal chance to participate. Help and guidelines section repeatedly points to the forums, so there is no reason any member would not be aware of their existence. And it is then their free choice to participate or not.

It does not give all an equal chance even those who do regularly visit the forums because there is no uniform way in presenting discussions surrounding guideline changes. There is not even a dedicated subsection on the forum. You have to follow every thread on the Forum to be aware of those discussions.

steve.fletcher
The current forum discussion prior to member proposed changes being made seems to work well.

It apparently does not work well because I have seen so many statements on forum discussions about guideline changes being very hard to implement. And it is getting even harder because Discogs management has sort of said that the community should be governing them, but there is no system in place for that yet.

steve.fletcher
I would suggest if you wish to propose a change to the way that Discogs makes amendments to guidelines, you open a separate thread and let people discuss and accept or reject your alternative plan.

Even you missed that one which proves my point: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/719376

ChrisEfterklang
You have to follow every thread on the Forum to be aware of those discussions.

Maybe a type of 'sticky' system could me made to gather any discussions relating to guidelines changes that are ongoing? Or

ChrisEfterklang
a dedicated subsection on the forum.

would seem a reasonably simple thing to implement.

Think this is maybe why Diognes_The_Fox said to wait so long, as it gives more the chance to see the discussion and take part.

In the meantime, we can keep bumping this.

New opinions to add to list, leave your comments please.

I add ASINs to all my submissions, if the release is available on Amazon, and I am sure that it is the exactly same issue. I have never had the understanding that it was meant for Amazon-exclusive/Amazon-manufactured releases.

ChrisEfterklang

Even you missed that one which proves my point: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/719376

You assume I missed that! I may have just chosen not to participate in that particular thread.

Ok I agree that a separate forum tag for guideline changes may be beneficial to help separate those discussions from general discussions. Almost like a second tier, discuss here first then if there is a general agreement open a thread under new tab for specific discussion and voting.
Not to open new proposals under a new tab without discussion here otherwise it would become swamped.
Hope that makes sense!

ChrisEfterklang
The whole existence of ASIN field always amazed me as the premise of Discogs is documenting a release as it is and an ASIN is nowhere present on any release.

Exactly. Why was it ever added??

I think it should only be used for exclusives, and would belong either in BAOI (as Other) or the Exclusive Retailer field.

Mr-Love
I think it should only be used for exclusives, and would belong either in BAOI (as Other) or the Exclusive Retailer field.

We can add you for both releases manufactured by amazon.com (CDrs) or digital files exclusive to amazon. +1 and want to move it to LCCN lists?

ChrisEfterklang
I really don't have a preference where the ASIN should be entered (BAOI or LCCN) but I agree that it only should be used on Amazon exclusive releases and certainly not on general releases.

Same for you, add to both lists?

jansenENjanssen
+1 and want to move it to LCCN lists?

Only reservation I have is that this would mean that iTunes exclusives should have the iTunes id added to LCCN instead of BAOI where it's usually added, which could be seen as a double standard, entering the same data in different locations depending on if the release is exclusive or not.

Mr-Love
have the iTunes id added to LCCN instead of BAOI where it's usually added

We were going to start a discussion asking about that at some point why the id numbers would not be seen the same as release cat#s, as they are unique to the releases and seem to have the same time of function as a catalogue number, will keep that out of this discussion though. Maybe there should be a separate discussion for those that are for moving the information to the LCCN section? Will be getting a bit complicated otherwise.

mikkelhk
on Amazon, and I am sure that it is the exactly same issue. I have never had the understanding that it was meant for Amazon-exclusive/Amazon-manufactured releases.

But how can you be absolutely sure. When Amazon receive new stock from the record company they will often use the same ASIN. It can come from completely different manufacturers.

jansenENjanssen
Maybe there should be a separate discussion for those that are for moving the information to the LCCN section?

Well step one would be to change the guideline for when ASIN should be used (is it even mentioned in guidelines?), then step two would be to remove the ASIN field and decide where to add it instead.

Question is though, if the ASIN field is removed, what will happen to all old entries? I assume they'd remain as legacy info to be manually removed or moved? Because if the info would just disappear, then a removal isn't a good option...