French releases can be a nightmare when it comes to date the releases, so I thought it is time to bring this up to a broader public. Here some useful hints on how to (roughly) "date" a French release (or at least to exclude a date).
Online since: August 2015 Last edited: 14.05.2025
The French price code system consisted of 5 phases:
Phase 1 (until 1946):
The colour of the centre labels, in combination with the size, was the price indicator.
However, every record label had it's own colour system.
NP in a circle: indicates that the shellac was made of recycled material ("Nouvelle Pâte"). It was introduced in 1939, shortly before WW II. The recycling allowed a much cheaper production but was very fragile and had far more surface noise.
Phase 2 (1947 to 1968) - "code-prix conseillé":
All French record labels used a common, state-imposed system called "code-prix conseillé", which consisted of either a word or a single letter, usually encircled and found on the back cover and/or the labels:
Ⓐ or A = Artistique (the most expensive price, usually for classic and high volume artists).
Ⓜ or M = Médium (medium price. Basically for the majority of releases).
Ⓢ or S = Standard (cheapest price, normally for "dance music" or reissues)
Later the record companies added their own letters, e.g. Philips = D (originally introduced 1959 as "Deluxe" for classic records with a lower price than A but later used for other releases with a price lower than A), or P for Populaire (introduced for records cheaper than S). Example: An LP that would have cost 25 Francs before would then go out for 9,95 Francs only.
Pathé Marconi used an alternate price code system (between 1967 and 1968 only):
A: Large orchestrations
B: small or medium orchestrations
C: Solo artists
D: Foreign artists.
Phase 3 (between 1968 and September 1978) - "Lettres-codes":
Introduced by the "Syndicat National de l'Édition Phonographique" (SNEP), consisting of a letter (later two letters).
Usually found encircled on the back cover, top right hand side. The code corresponded to a common price, imposed on all record companies and (due to state-imposed fixed margins) on retailers. So, the retail price resulted automatically.
Note: usually, the price codes changed in the last quarter of the year.
For example, the code valid for 1973 (= O) was in fact already introduced in October 1972.
For 33 cm records (LPs and 12"s) there were the following codes:
A, M, S, D (earlier codes, carried over from the previous code system)
T, U - introduced 1968
B, C, E, F, G, H, R - introduced 1970
I, K, Q, W, X - introduced 1971 (Q and W were used for import records)
Z - introduced 1972
Prices were fixed by the Ministry of Finance until 1972. After that, the record companies had more flexibility in their price policies and hence more codes were introduced, until the whole alphabet was in use:
O - introduced 1973
Y - introduced 1974
FB - introduced 1975
V, KC, RB, SE, SF - introduced 1977
Attention in case of reissues: when the price for the record didn't change, the price code didn't either. So you may very well find a price code from 1969 (T) on a Pink Floyd album of 1975. It's also possible that there are several reissues with different price codes. Because printing a new cover for each price change was too expensive, the companies often used small stickers, covering the old price code. See here for an example.
Important note: it is standard Discogs policy that stickers are considered post-manufacture variants. So, a record with a price code sticker from 1980, covering the original printed price code S from 1976 is not a reissue and should not be a separate submission.
Generally, you can group the various LP and 12" price codes (26 altogether in 1978) in four categories:
Budget-line (for established releases, between 10 and 25 FRF in 1978): codes D, E, F, G, H, R, V, Z, FB, RB.
Medium price (between 25 and 35 FRF in 1978): codes B, U, C, T.
New releases (between 35 and 50 FRF in 1978): codes A, K, O, S, X, Y, SE, SF.
Special releases (higher than 50 FRF in 1978): codes I, Q, W, KC.
There were several price adjustments, e.g. in 1972, 1974 and 1977, leading to higher prices for all price codes.
E.g., for "A" from 37 FRF (1970) to 37,50 (1972), to 39 FRF (1974), and 40 FRF (1977).
For 7"s the codes were:
L (since 1968)
J (since 1972)
M (for EPs - since 1968)
NA (1971 - 1975)
N (since 1973) - (not to be confused with Visadisc, see below)
PN (since 1974)
E (since 1975)
EA (since 1976)
EC (since 1977)
LA (since 1974)
Company specific codes:
N (Visadisc 7", since 1964)
P4 (Visadisc 7", since 1969)
OE (Carrousel LP, since 1975)
C.R or C.R. (La Voix De Son Maître classical releases, since ca. 1977)
Phase 4 (October 1978 until late 1984) - Company specific:
The price codes coming from the record company were not binding for the retailers anymore, they now could freely add their margins on top.
Note: The new price code was already introduced in the fourth quarter of 1978. Sometimes on a sticker and in conjunction with the old price code.
WE CD
810: 1986 - 1998
833: 1986 - 2000
835: 1986 - 1998
851: 1986 - 1998
WE CDS
731: 1988 - 1995
739: 1990 - 2000
Phase 5 (since August 1984):
Introduction of Barcodes.
French cassettes featured barcodes only since October 1984.
So, despite barcodes, record companies were still obliged to show Price Codes on all releases issued in , i.e. also for Europe-wide releases not specifically mentioning (see No. 8 of this official French document from 1995 (consolidated version 2017)).
My sincere thanks goes to the Bibliotheque Nationale de (BNF), which is an enormously rich resource and utterly helpful for correcting faulty Discogs dates.
A word on the DL (Dépôt Légal - "Legal Deposit") of BNF:
Only the first edition is subject to the legal deposit date, reissues are excluded: when the BNF has a DL date of 1987 with a certain price code, then another price code must be a reissue.
very instructive, thanks!
I know it's not on the right thread (not so far), but could please tell me what you know about the "POL" (Polydor) introdrocing date, not exclusively on Virgin?
sebfact
- Polydor distributed Virgin releases between the mid 1970s and 1980.
- Arabella Eurodisc (part of Bertelsmann) distributed releases between 1980 and 1983.
- Pathé Marconi/EMI distributed releases since 1984 and thereafter.
The corresponding UK release was 1976. Any reason to suspect this French release came later? I noticed it uses the original Roger Dean label design which was already gone in the UK by '76, but which was also used in Canada until 1979, so I guess that doesn't mean anything.
brunorepublic
What about those distributed by C.P.F. Barclay? See Tangerine Dream - Zeit for an example.
Well, obviously Polydor weren't exclusive distributors. TBH, I haven't deep-dived into releases prior to the AE era. Looking at the Pathé Marconi unique matrix numbers, this was definitely pressed in 1976.
siamuerte
Maybe could you help me to date this french cassette release of Orchestral Manoeuvres In The Dark - Organisation more precisely than the "1985/1990" I found by reading your notes?
Unfortunately not. It's definitely after 1984 due to the barcode. Pathé Marconi S.A. was established in June 1985 but I can't tell you more than that.
I have changed the title and added some information about French price codes. I am moving away from purely describing French Virgin releases to a more general explanation on French releases. A lot of French releases are wrongly dated due to the P&C dates. However, price codes and pressing plant codes (especially for EMI) help to properly date many entries here.
sebfact
French releases can be a nightmare when it comes to date the releases, so I thought it is time to bring this up to a broader public.
And you did well ! Thank you so much for providing this detailed and comprehensive information to the community. I am sure you invested lots of hours in your review. Thanks a lot !
IC that the topic of French deserves some more deep dive :-) and some broadening at the same time. So, I will try to cover the topic in more detail, but please allow for some research time.
sebfact
Generally, you can group the various price codes (26 altogther in 1978) in three categories:
Budget-Line (for established releases, between 10 and 25 FRF in 1978, e.g. codes D, F, G, H, R, E, Z)
sebfact
Phase 4 (late 1979 until late 1984):
Company specific price codes: PM, POL, AE, PG, BA, CB, etc.
See list below for abbreviations.
Phase 5 (since 1984):
Barcodes.
Then how come Swedish WEA releases from the 1990s included the company specific code "WE", usually written as " WE XXX", XXX being three digits? An example: Orup - Orupeansongs (and no, those were usually not released outside Sweden, but somehow still carried the French code).
Also, how does one know if the code is a price code or distribution code, and what's the difference between the two?
I'd say that even after the introduction of barcodes they did serve as price codes. At least for , the distinction then is not clear. Maybe not even generally. Or what would -320 mean on German releases? IMO, it's both: a price and distribution code. That's a really old and unresolved discussion here on Discogs.
sebfact
IMO, it's both: a price and distribution code. That's a really old and unresolved discussion here on Discogs.
Indeed, which is why I usually leave out the description and just add exactly what's on release, such as "Other: WE 833", or possibly "Other (): WE 833".
All this is very interesting, but where do you find your informations about the price codes and other things like that ? is it a deduction from observation, or is that infos from compagnies websites, or people who work on those record compagnies ?
It's a bit of both. Observation is cross-checked with available information from the internet. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no company internal documentation available on that. I've tried several times to get in touch with former employees but to no avail. However, the price codes themselves are also documented in a European Community paper from 1979 on the French record industry. I also found the price codes and their values in a French periodical from 1978.
Legal deposit could maybe be helpful in some cases to narrow down possible release dates : it's been mandatory since 1938, and the current (since ???) rules are that it is to be done at latest on public release day. However, only the first edition is subject to the legal deposit, and some imported items may escape the obligation altogether.
Erm, I'm not SURE the BNF is always trustworthy, it seems like it uses (P) dates as preference over (DL) ie legal deposit dates, when the (P) dates are available. However, it is definitely a useful tool, and here, in conjunction with the encircled R, and providing the 1980 re-release as part of the box set explaining why 1980 may appear, it's rather strong.
seems like Olivier (the label's guy) complied with the law for its first 3 releases, then let it float, and for some reason deposited an incomplete batch of them in 2014, and is letting it float again. The BNF does not have the means to hunt for every unsubmitted small release - but any major or big independant can be expected to routinely submit the mandatory paperwork and physical copies.
My thanks for your work and service to the community, sebfact.
Found a lot I looked for and could never decipher correctly. Very useful indeed.
Saved thread for reference!
enparfaitetat
Same cat for different similar reissue. Be carefull with BNF.
Yup, as I said "However, only the first edition is subject to the legal deposit" - all subsequent get subsumed into it; and there are of course other limits and problems. It's a tool, not an oracle ;°)
Does the presence of a price code on a 7" (labels and/or sleeve) help to identify a promo/non-promo record?
e.g. A lot of French Decca singles by the Rolling Stones The Rolling Stones - Get Off Of My Cloud / I'm Free are entered as jukebox/promo (nothing factual on the sleeves & labels though) but show a "S" on front sleeve and a circled "S" on labels.
Thanks!
mtwallet
Does the presence of a price code on a 7" (labels and/or sleeve) help to identify a promo/non-promo record?
The S would indicate Standard, mainly used for (cheaper) reissues. It evidently is a 2-track jukebox (re-)issue of the 4-track EP, which came as Série Médium. So, it may very well be that the jukebox issues with reduced artwork and tracks always went as Standard, but you always need to compare if there is a related release.
aure69
does it mean the price was the same for a LP or a cassette ?
Never really looked into cassettes really. However, I would say so as the basis prices were fixed by the government. Retailers had certain possibilities to add or reduce a spread though so you may have differing ranges for LPs and K7s.
A timely thread for me to ask the community if this submission I recently made Art Garfunkel - Watermark is UK or Europe as there appears to be French price codes (I've added clear images). If anyone could steer me regarding adding BAOI info that would be great too, thanks.
There are several price codes on it: 53 in circle (Likely a code), CB 431 (French) and PA (likely UK). Label Codes were predominantly used in .
However: Made in England points to a UK manufacture, likely by CBS Pressing Plant, Aston Clinton and they duplicated locally only. Also does MS point to a UK release. All in, I'd say your's is UK only with a global / universal j-card.
Thanks sebfact, yes, the card details are stripped to the bare bone to save space. I'll enter the codes as a ref. I too took it as UK and I'll leave the sub that way. If cassettes from other countries come up in the future I can compare details.
thanks for the link to the Brazilian thread!
[Regarding the word "Série" in , Philips/Fontana also used it on sleeves&labels to indicate how many records by the same artist have already been released. I don't think it has to be entered as "real" series then: 20e Série
It may be part of the title or added to the notes though]
Very interesting!
As at the moment I am submitting shellacs labelled as Odeon, RCA Victor & Columbia you can find words as:
Notable / Notável / Celebridades / Artistico / Medium / Standard / Orquesta / Instrumental / Bailable / Popular and many other words I can't remeber right now (of course those are spelled in different languages, spanish, english, portuguese)
I know I am going out of topic, as I have not reached the french shellacs albums in collection... but at last this is a related issue and very oportune.
I think wording "Category" fits better because it do not implies different prices to consumer (except for: Standard, De Luxe, Medium) but rather it is the artistic or musical direction contained in the work or the intended market target.
That should certainly be discussed in a broader forum... There obviously are more shades to pricing, e.g. packaging, content etc. So a new BAOI entry may be worthwhile discussing.
The price/distribution code CB 211 seems to be related to 1982. Can somebody help me how I can this information and how to get the knowledge on CB codes.
japvanriet
The price/distribution code CB 211 seems to be related to 1982. Can somebody help me how I can this information and how to get the knowledge on CB codes.
I have tried to pin down the French CB codes but it's a very messy thing and 211 apparently wasn't used in at all.
Thank you sebfact for collecting and providing all this information.
I do have some BMG CD releases with a French price code 'BM720' which is currently not listed here.
Is there any information, when this 'BM' was used instead of the 'RC'?
For example BM seen on The Alan Parsons Project - I Robot and their corresponding releases
with code RC: The Alan Parsons Project - I Robot.
Nordlichtnomade
Is there any information, when this 'BM' was used instead of the 'RC'?
I've added BM as price code, thanks. Not sure really when the code first appeared, except my assumption "1987 or later", when RCA, Arista and Ariola were united in 1987 as Bertelsmann Music Group (BMG).
Hello sebfact
Need clarification concerning french Philips price code Ⓓ:
Phase 2 < Later the record companies added their own letters, e.g. Philips = D for Deluxe
1/ Ⓓ for Deluxe is a price code or not?
2/ When you say 'Later', what exactly do you mean by that? Later than 1968 or from 1970 as stated in phase 3? When appears this code on french releases exactly?
For example see Michel Legrand - Les Demoiselles De Rochefort (Bande Originale Du Film) < history French releases can be a nightmare when it comes to date the releases ;-)
DistriSaturn
1/ Ⓓ for Deluxe is a price code or not?
Clearly, yes.
DistriSaturn
2/ When you say 'Later', what exactly do you mean by that? Later than 1968 or from 1970 as stated in phase 3? When appears this code on french releases exactly?
According to my documentation, Philips/Phonogram (Fontana etc.) (D) started in 1959. Before that, the "Deluxe" on the cover had the 3 normal price codes S, A, or M.
sebfact
According to my documentation, Philips/Phonogram (Fontana etc.) (D) started in 1959. Before that, the "Deluxe" on the cover had the 3 normal price codes S, A, or M.
And of course in the 1970s PolyGram also used just the wording - so Deluxe etc were written near the back cover cat # and sometimes on the spine.
Just added this Various - Une Histoire Des Géants Du Jazz, copied it to draft, submitted it, then realised I wasn't sure if 1969 is correct.
Does the price of 24,25 indicate here that it's from 1970, should I blank the year, or can 1969 also be correct?
Great helpful topic by the way.
sebfact
T (24,25) was actually already introduced in 1968 and the first price adjustment was only 1974. So any date between 1968 and 1974 is possible :-)
Thanks, very helpful.
This particular record got added to a library in 1971, so after 1971 would be unlikely :-)
Blanked the year, not sure where the release year for Various - Une Histoire Des Géants Du Jazz was based on by the way.
NEW BAOI MENU now includes: Price Code & Distribution Code.
Great news but according to this thread is quite difficult to known if it is Price or/and Distribution code.
I wish it was a mix "Price/Distribution Code", everybody is not in so deep known
A missing company price code could be "UN" which probably stands for "Universal" or "Universal Music", see Nine Inch Nails - The Fragile which says "UN 892" - it does however not mention .
sebfact
Then just leave the comment blank and everybody can figure it out their way :-)
I input data on "Other" and write on description field "Price/Distribution Code", IMHO new split price and distribution code will not encourage s to use it, it is too much complex to be sure if it is price or distribution.
Mr-Love
A missing company price code could be "UN" which probably stands for "Universal" or "Universal Music", see Nine Inch Nails - The Fragile which says "UN 892" - it does however not mention .
tele52
NEW BAOI MENU now includes: Price Code & Distribution Code.
Great news but according to this thread is quite difficult to known if it is Price or/and Distribution code.
I wish it was a mix "Price/Distribution Code", everybody is not in so deep known
othall
It's allright but sometimes, there are both: Status Quo - Again And Again / Too Far Gone
Hmm, I don't think that there is something different than two Price codes on that release.
According to the list in the first post of this current thread the PG100 is the company's price code for Phonogram. Just incorrectly tagged as distribution code on the release Status Quo - Again And Again / Too Far Gone.
tele52
I wish it was a mix "Price/Distribution Code", everybody is not in so deep known
Same here
I'm most probably in not deep knowledge anyway, but still don't get what would make make eg. "NR 100" a Price code rather than a Distribution Code (most used)
Still I get that Ⓛ is a price code
... I'd be grateful if s.o. could redirect me to a rationale for Distribution vs. Price code
This is all about French codes in this thread, okay. But what if there are different codes for different countries like in The Primitives - Pure? The French code is a price code, right? But what are the other ones for and the UK? Distribution codes? Or have there been price codes in and the UK as well?
