Sony DADC, Toronto/SMC/Sony Music Canada - SID codes etc.

Following on from a discussion that started here https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/719616?message_id=11447997&page=19#11443848 which also continues on the following page there.

I have created this thread to try and progress the allocation of SID codes and potentially rationalize the profiles for Sony's Canadian operations.

We currently have SMC.

There is also direct confirmation here regarding the Sony DADC, Toronto manufacturing plant.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081114073353/http://www.sonydadc.com/opencms/opencms/sites/am/About_Us/Americas_Facilities/Canada.html

The main questions.
- Should we create a label for Sony DADC, Toronto?
- Do we have enough information to allocate SID codes to this plant?

Speaking of SID codes, IMO the 67** mould SID is definitely linked to the Toronto SMC plant.

Conversely, I don't think mastering SID IFPI LW60 is linked to it; however, Sony discs seem to have sequential matrix numbering starting with S and later SG along with a 5-digit number.

ETA: IFPI LW60 being present on lots of Sony Music CDs for the Canadian market.

I think we can assign both LW60 as mastering SID, as well 67** as mould SIDs (if not too many, we should probably list them exclusively, makes search easier).

I think we eventually can also merge the profiles.

The S-numbers can also likely be assigned here, but I don't have time to search for the "negative", S-numbers without LW60 SID code. I would also like to see a test of their sequentiality.

Warepire
I think we eventually can also merge the profiles.

Is it possible that ultimately, we could have SMC as the predecessor plant for Sony DADC, Toronto and leave Sony Music Canada as the releasing entity?

Then we might be in a somewhat analogous situation to Europe where we have manufactured by roles for Sony Music Canada and glass mastered/pressed roles for Sony DADC, Toronto.

I'm also assuming here that the changeover to Sony DADC, Toronto for the plant will have taken place around the same time as it did for the US plants (August 2005).

This announcement would tend to that rough date
https://web.archive.org/web/20081115141515/http://www.sonydadc.com/opencms/opencms/sites/am/files/Press_Releases/news_0016.html

This press release potentially places it a little earlier.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081115141338/http://www.sonydadc.com/opencms/opencms/sites/am/files/Press_Releases/news_0002.html

handmedownurluv
Sony discs seem to have sequential matrix numbering starting with S and later SG along with a 5-digit number.

Some multi disk 'S' prefixed cases Joe Dassin - Simplement Joe - Une Compilation Des Plus Grands Succès De Joe Dassin

The changeover to 'SG' (sometimes misread as 'SQ' or 'SO') prefixed numbers occurred at some point in 2008.

Some examples Various - Ultimate Holiday Collection.

In both cases they look sequential.

handmedownurluv
Conversely, I don't think mastering SID IFPI LW60 is linked to it

Any thoughts on who might be the owner of LW60?

First appearance of IFPI 67** is 1994.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPI67&decade=1990&year=1994

First appearance of IFPI LW60 is 1994.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIlw60&decade=1990&year=1994

In both cases they are pretty much all Canadian releases.

IFPI 1F seems to appear initially with EMI Mfg. Glass Master Codes and then later It appears with LW60.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIL+IFPI1F&matrix=0

They are pretty much all Canadian releases as well.

IFPI LW60 - need to do some more research of my own but could well belong to Sony Canada

IFPI 67** - definitely looks to belong to Sony Canada to me

spekem
Some multi disk 'S' prefixed cases Judas Priest - The Essential Judas Priest, Gloria Estefan - The Essential Gloria Estefan, Joe Dassin - Simplement Joe - Une Compilation Des Plus Grands Succès De Joe Dassin

spekem
Some examples Marianas Trench - Masterpiece Theatre, AC/DC - Iron Man 2, Various - Ultimate Holiday Collection.

Great examples. I would agree these numbers seem sequential and that they could be entered as cat#s for whichever profiles we end up establishing.

spekem
First appearance of IFPI LW60 is 1994.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIlw60&decade=1990&year=1994

I expect those are probably mis-dated. There are only 25 submissions in the db with IFPI LW60 dated to the entire 1990s: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=release&barcode=IFPIlw60&decade=1990

Early SMC discs (even those with 67** mould codes) may have no mastering SID code, a DADC US mastering SID, or even DADR/Americ Disc mastering SIDs:
Various - The Craft: Music From The Motion Picture

spekem
IFPI 1F seems to appear initially with EMI Mfg. Glass Master Codes and then later It appears with LW60.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIL+IFPI1F&matrix=0

IFPI 1F belongs to EMI MFG's Canadian plant which doesn't currently have its own label profile. Must have switched from EMI MFG US glass masters to Sony Canada glass masters at some point for some reason

Myriad
I expect those are probably mis-dated. There are only 25 submissions in the db with IFPI LW60 dated to the entire 1990s: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=release&barcode=IFPIlw60&decade=1990

Yes. The 'S' codes some of them have may ultimately help date them more accurately.

spekem
This announcement would tend to that rough date
http://www.sonydadc.com/opencms/opencms/sites/am/files/Press_Releases/news_0016.html

This press release potentially places it a little earlier.
http://www.sonydadc.com/opencms/opencms/sites/am/files/Press_Releases/news_0002.html

These links don't work.

spekem
Is it possible that ultimately, we could have SMC as the predecessor plant for Sony DADC, Toronto and leave Sony Music Canada as the releasing entity?

Also possible.

It seems that IFPI LW60 fell out of use after 2011:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=%22ifpilw60%22&type=release&decade=2010

This aligns with the Sony DADC Canada plant closing in 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20180211170216/http://www.plasticsnews.com/article/20180126/NEWS/180129910/sony-outsources-disc-manufacturing-plans-layoffs-in-indiana?CSAuthResp=1%3A173673623571598%3A114115%3A6%3A24%3Aapproved%3A08EFF4E2168E9C1ADC30C5BCBE480C5D

Warepire
These links don't work.

Hopefully now fixed up thread

Myriad
It seems that IFPI LW60 fell out of use after 2011:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=%22ifpilw60%22&type=release&decade=2010

This aligns with the Sony DADC Canada plant closing in 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20180211170216/http://www.plasticsnews.com/article/20180126/NEWS/180129910/sony-outsources-disc-manufacturing-plans-layoffs-in-indiana?CSAuthResp=1%3A173673623571598%3A114115%3A6%3A24%3Aapproved%3A08EFF4E2168E9C1ADC30C5BCBE480C5D

Coming around to this, seems like IFPI LW60 is related to SMC.

Myriad
IFPI 1F belongs to EMI MFG's Canadian plant which doesn't currently have its own label profile. Must have switched from EMI MFG US glass masters to Sony Canada glass masters at some point for some reason

I believe the glass mastering plant switched to Sony after EMI Mfg. was acquired by Cinram in 2004. Peak IFPI LW60 / IFPI 1F** pairing was in 2005/2006, in line with the Canadian EMI plant shutting down in 2007:

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=ifpilw60+ifpi1f&type=release&decade=2000

IFPI LW60 glass masters for the Canadian EMI plant seemed to have sequential numbering starting with E, for example: Echoes (The Best Of Pink Floyd)

handmedownurluv
I believe the glass mastering plant switched to Sony after EMI Mfg. was acquired by Cinram in 2004. Peak IFPI LW60 / IFPI 1F** pairing was in 2005/2006, in line with the Canadian EMI plant shutting down in 2007:

This from around the same time and in the Sony DADC press release upthread

"Sony DADC Canada's DVD replication capacity was doubled in 2006 with additional capacity increases scheduled for 2007. In addition, fully automated DVD packaging capabilities have been installed.

The plan to increase CD replication capacity is scheduled for 2007 with the installation of additional replication and label print equipment."

................Looking at the potential inheriting of codes from the EMI plant in Canada.

This search suggests that in the 90's L482/L483 along with the 1F** press code was used for some releases.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIL+IFPI&country=CANADA&matrix=EMI+MUSIC

L482/L483 belong to Disque Americ. The matrix pattern you see is suggestive they did the glass mastering.

S04092 is the lowest 'S' number for the LW60/67** pairing that also comes with a reliable release date that I have found Michael Sadler - One Minute.

Placing commencement of this pairing in 2004.

Here's the full list https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPILW60+67&matrix=s04

Wondering if the '04' part indicates glass mastering year.

E00387 is the lowest 'E' number for the LW60/1F** pairing that also comes with a reliable release date that I have found Various - Adventures In Advertising.

Placing the potential commencement of this pairing in 2005.

Here's the full list https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPILW60+1F&matrix=E0

The 'E' number looks sequential Iron Maiden - Rock In Rio.

DISQUE AMERIC seems to have had a long association with EMI Music Canada dating back before the advent of SID codes.

The customer identifier used in the matrix by DISQUE AMERIC looks to be <011> or <0011>

Here's an indicative search https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&matrix=%3C011%3E

spekem
S04092 is the lowest 'S' number for the LW60/67** pairing that also comes with a reliable release date that I have found Michael Sadler - One Minute.

And here's the lowest number you found overall from the other thread, without mastering SID code: Kittie - Until The End
Also from 2004.

spekem
E00387 is the lowest 'E' number for the LW60/1F** pairing that also comes with a reliable release date that I have found Various - Adventures In Advertising.

E00076-2 here: Powerslave (1998 as the year is not correct, also the images are from the actual original pressing with EMI Mfg. glass master)

handmedownurluv
E00076-2 here: Powerslave (1998 as the year is not correct, also the images are from the actual original pressing with EMI Mfg. glass master)

Yes, and those images only added 6 months ago by RecordChaser9............he needs to do a new sub for his version.

Warepire
And here's the lowest number you found overall from the other thread, without mastering SID code: Kittie - Until The End
Also from 2004.

An outlier that one. There is a matrix scan which has correctly transcribed the number (S00171). It's almost as if the plant has generated a typo in that string.

The copyright date in the artwork is 2004 as well.

Of coincidental interest.

Mediamotion was allocated LW glass master SID's seemingly immediately following its takeover of EMI Uden.

Their codes are right at the start of the LW sequence.

I'm presuming IFPI has a sequential master list that it allocates the codes from. If so maybe LW60 will have been allocated slightly later than Mediamotions LW codes.

handmedownurluv
I believe the glass mastering plant switched to Sony after EMI Mfg. was acquired by Cinram in 2004. Peak IFPI LW60 / IFPI 1F** pairing was in 2005/2006, in line with the Canadian EMI plant shutting down in 2007:

2007 was the last year for any use of IFPI 1F**. Once the EMI plant closed that year the code retired completely.

Any ideas on what/who 'HMA' refers to here.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=ifpil+ifpi&matrix=hma&country_exact=Canada

spekem
I'm presuming IFPI has a sequential master list that it allocates the codes from. If so maybe LW60 will have been allocated slightly later than Mediamotions LW codes.

I'm pretty sure Mediamotion only ever used IFPI LW0* codes, not LW1*-LW9*

spekem
handmedownurluvE00076-2 here: Powerslave (1998 as the year is not correct, also the images are from the actual original pressing with EMI Mfg. glass master)

Yes, and those images only added 6 months ago by RecordChaser9............he needs to do a new sub for his version.

Done. Can't believe I missed the end of that text string in the matrix.

I will get started on the following slate of label creations/updates in a weeks' time, subject to any additional information/opinions that may occur in the meantime.

I'm broadly proposing to do the following.

1. Create a 'Sony DADC, Toronto' label.

- Identify IFPI LW60 as that plants glass master code.
- Identify IFPI 67** as the plants press code - inherited from Sony Music Canada.
- Identify the sequential number series Snnnnn and SGnnnnn as the plants.
- Identify the 'E' sequential number as belonging to EMI Music Canada.

2. Update Sony Music Canada

- Identify IFPI 67** as their press code.

3. For EMI Music Canada.

Some additional background from Wayback.

Manufacturing Info: https://web.archive.org/web/20050223033440/http://emicanada.com/manufacturing.asp

On Making CD's there: https://web.archive.org/web/20050227090201/http://emicanada.com/making_cd.asp

- Identify IFPI 1F** as their press code.
- Confirm they did not do their own glass masters.
- Identify the 'E' sequential number as theirs.
- identify use of EMI MFG., Sony DADC, Toronto for glass mastering.

4. For EMI MFG..

- Identify the IFPI 1F** press code as belonging to EMI Music Canada.

There are a lot of moving parts here and if I have missed anything that should be included/excluded let me know :)

spekem
4. For EMI MFG..

- Identify the IFPI 1F** press code as belonging to EMI Music Canada.

from the profile EMI MFG., should this information be linked or included on the EMI Music Canada page?

A ‘CA’ is commonly included in the matrix string of these 1F** pressed releases. - Mould ... SID used was 1F** EMI Mfg. .

oceanographer
from the profile EMI MFG., should this information be linked or included on the EMI Music Canada page?

Yes, I think so :)

spekem
3. For EMI Music Canada.

I think if we're going to go ahead with points 3 and 4, it would make sense to consider a new label profile along the lines of 'EMI Music Canada Pressing Plant' similar to all the vinyl pressing plant label profiles that exist, as EMI Music Canada is a generic company/brand name that existing possibly before and after the manufacturing plant was active under this name.

And probably worth creating a separate forum discussion to specifically announce the intention to credit these Canadian EMI CDs based on the mould SID code where you can lay out all the relevant info in the first post there

spekem
1. Create a 'Sony DADC, Toronto' label.

- Identify IFPI LW60 as that plants glass master code.
- Identify IFPI 67** as the plants press code - inherited from Sony Music Canada.
- Identify the sequential number series Snnnnn and SGnnnnn as the plants.

Agree with all these points

spekem
2. Update Sony Music Canada

- Identify IFPI 67** as their press code.

and with this

Myriad
it would make sense to consider a new label profile along the lines of 'EMI Music Canada Pressing Plant' similar to all the vinyl pressing plant label profiles that exist, as EMI Music Canada is a generic company/brand name that existing possibly before and after the manufacturing plant was active under this name.

And probably worth creating a separate forum discussion to specifically announce the intention to credit these Canadian EMI CDs based on the mould SID code where you can lay out all the relevant info in the first post there

.........Sounds like a plan :)

spekem
.........Sounds like a plan :)

Forum thread created here https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/1118112

Views/evidence etc. sought.

If I have missed anything in the translation of existing information/evidence over to the new thread let me know.

Please set the first cuts for the now created Sony Music Canada.

Corrections/additions/clarifications/etc. sought

Looks fine, would probably replace BACKGROUND with HISTORY or nothing at all, and use bold instead of all capitals for sections.

Another bit to add to the profile.... Can appear as "SOCAN" in the matrix. See Tapping The Vein - Another Day Down.

star_man_20
Another bit to add to the profile.... Can appear as "SOCAN" in the matrix. See Tapping The Vein - Another Day Down.

I wonder if that is a different identifier, it's tied to another sequential number that I have also seen together wtih e.g. "SODD".
Grand Lux - Carved In Stone

Warepire
star_man_20Another bit to add to the profile.... Can appear as "SOCAN" in the matrix. See Tapping The Vein - Another Day Down.

I wonder if that is a different identifier, it's tied to another sequential number that I have also seen together wtih e.g. "SODD".
Grand Lux - Carved In Stone

I saw SODD on a few 04-05 pressings. Perhaps Sony DADC Canada changed their manufacturing mark to SOCAN when they changed to the SG___ code.. Nope, see below. No idea on the reasoning.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=release&barcode=LW60&matrix=SODD

star_man_20
Warepirestar_man_20Another bit to add to the profile.... Can appear as "SOCAN" in the matrix. See Tapping The Vein - Another Day Down.

I wonder if that is a different identifier, it's tied to another sequential number that I have also seen together wtih e.g. "SODD".
Grand Lux - Carved In Stone

I saw SODD on a few 04-05 pressings. Perhaps Sony DADC Canada changed their manufacturing mark to SOCAN when they changed to the SG___ code.. Nope, see below. No idea on the reasoning.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=release&barcode=LW60&matrix=SODD

The number before the SODD/SOCAN is also sequential. Why would a plant have 2 sequential numbers?

I also ed I posted about the SODD identifier in the matrix thread: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/719616?page=19#11443848
There were some suggestions on the following page what it could be, but nothing conclusive. I see I pinged you as well as you usually know a lot about these plants or are able to dig out information about them.

Warepire
The number before the SODD/SOCAN is also sequential. Why would a plant have 2 sequential numbers?

My best guess? One is the catalog for the digital master the glass master is made from, and the other is the glass master.

Came across the same thing in for the Pinckneyville (sic) plant.

Warepire
Looks fine, would probably replace BACKGROUND with HISTORY or nothing at all, and use bold instead of all capitals for sections.

Thanks, Warepire I will make those suggested changes.

Warepire
The number before the SODD/SOCAN is also sequential. Why would a plant have 2 sequential numbers?

That number seems to be related to the release overall as it does not change in multi disk releases Information Society - It Is Useless To Resist Us (25 Years Of Information Society).

star_man_20
Another bit to add to the profile.... Can appear as "SOCAN" in the matrix.

Looking like we should do that along with "SODD"

spekem
WarepireThe number before the SODD/SOCAN is also sequential. Why would a plant have 2 sequential numbers?

That number seems to be related to the release overall as it does not change in multi disk releases The Crüxshadows - The Mystery Of The Whisper, Information Society - It Is Useless To Resist Us (25 Years Of Information Society).

Interesting, thanks for noticing that.

star_man_20
saw SODD on a few 04-05 pressings. Perhaps Sony DADC Canada changed their manufacturing mark to SOCAN when they changed to the SG___ code.. Nope, see below. No idea on the reasoning.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=release&barcode=LW60&matrix=SODD

I have picked through both lists.

For "SODD" the highest number I spotted was S15782 (Ceremony (8) - Ceremony)
For "SOCAN" the lowest number I spotted was S17186 (Lunascape - Innerside)

Suggesting some sort of corporate nomenclature change rather than a new number series?

spekem
Suggesting some sort of corporate nomenclature change rather than a new number series?

Oh you think I was suggesting two series? No, I am saying that Sony DADC Toronto can be identified with SODD and then SOCAN in the matrix.

star_man_20
Oh you think I was suggesting two series? No, I am saying that Sony DADC Toronto can be identified with SODD and then SOCAN.

Yes, I agree with that :)

Have made the format changes and added SODD & SOCAN as plant identifiers as discussed above for Sony DADC, Toronto.

Format changes here also done Sony Music Canada.

I must say, this new profile seems to have been created rather quickly.

I believe you need to specifically state on each profile which date range applies. ie. when do we cease using Sony Music Canada and begin using Sony DADC, Toronto?

Madturtle3
I believe you need to specifically state on each profile which date range applies. ie. when do we cease using Sony Music Canada and begin using Sony DADC, Toronto?

Yes, it would be good to establish some transition guidance.

My impression is that transition points to Sony DADC in North America more generally are something of more difficult thing to establish with precision.

Focusing on 2005 as the transitional year

Here is the overall data.

The examples used have a release date recorded at least down to the month (though I'm not saying the release date given is necessarily correct).

Pitman
In total for 2005 1 sub with the L42**/67** pairing Various - Bluegrass Allstars.

Terre Haute
In total 20 subs for 2005 with the L32**/67** pairing, Alla Pavlova – Tchaikovsky Symphony Orchestra Of Moscow Radio* / Vladimir Fedoseyev - Symphonies Nos. 2 & 4.

Terre Haute
In total 2 subs for 2005 with the L33**/67** pairing The Offspring - Complete Music Video Collection.

So at least the numbers are not high.

The latest sub with a full release date is for November 2005.

My feeling (and it's only that) is to set the change point at the beginning of 2005.

Hoping there are better suggestions from others.

I wonder whether SODD may actually refer to some broker or other company. All the discs with SODD in matrix seem to also have a unique ###### matrix number preceding the SODD, such as 000887 on Rotting - Crushed

The SODD matrixes also appear mostly on small independent releases, which makes sense for it to be a broker: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=%22ifpilw6%22+%22SODD%22&type=release

Myriad
I wonder whether SODD may actually refer to some broker or other company. All the discs with SODD in matrix seem to also have a unique ###### matrix number preceding the SODD, such as 000887

That unique sequential ####### also continues into the later SOCAN releases Neuroticfish - A Greater Good - History 1998-2008.

Suggesting some sort of name change for the entity - Maybe some sort of Canadian artist entity rather than an actual broker if it is an entity external to Sony/Sony DADC?

I did a search of just SODD, and checked about 20 releases at random, and they were all Sony DADC Toronto glass masters. It SODD were a broker, it would have outsourced to other manufacturers, or made sure it had some kind of credit on at least a few of the releases, but that is not the case with SODD.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?sort=title%2Casc&type=release&barcode=SODD&format=CD

spekem
Maybe some sort of Canadian artist entity rather than an actual broker

A chance for SOCAN at least? https://www.socan.com/about/

......no luck on SODD though. I lucked out on Wayback too, but not an expert.

spekem
A chance for SOCAN at least? https://www.socan.com/about/

SOCAN = Sony (Of) Canada
Terrible coincidence that SOCAN is also a rights society. But a rights society would not be brokering manufacturing of CDs.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?sort=title%2Casc&type=release&format=CD&matrix=SOCAN
As an example, the publishing entity on The Crüxshadows - Immortal is d with BMI.

star_man_20
SOCAN = Sony (Of) Canada

Yes, I would tend to agree with you.

The SODD/SOCAN other number (for want of a better description).

starts with '0' for single disc releases
and for multi disc releases it starts with '1' for the first disc and '2' for the second.

Forastiere* - Live

spekem
The SODD/SOCAN other number (for want of a better description).

starts with '0' for single disc releases
and for multi disc releases it starts with '1' for the first disc and '2' for the second.

Lunascape - Innerside, Forastiere* - Live

Now THAT is a curiosity.

And the rest of the number stays the same. Can't be entered as a catalog number, since the leading number is a variable for # of discs.

Myriad
I wonder whether SODD may actually refer to some broker or other company. All the discs with SODD in matrix seem to also have a unique ###### matrix number preceding the SODD

Here's another one with a secondary number. This time for 'HMA' Birthday Boys* - Bad Blood.