shure m35x/m44g/whitelabel and ortofon DJ S

ok, so basically i have limited my next cart and styli to be one of the above. im more leaning towards the M35X, i can pick them up cheap, they have good output and good tracking - although i quite like the flexibility of the DJ S in that i can use both a spherical and elliptical stylus (and stick a nightclub E on it) but with a slightly heavier tracking.

if it makes any difference, my genre is US House/Garage and some UK/european funky house.

suggestions on the best of those?

cheers

I have only used and therefore can only comment on the Ortofons and the sure white labels.
Ortofon:
The DJ S are nice, track well, are punchy, loud and bright. They do dig deep into your vinyl and give cue burn fairly readily. Where a lot of stylus won't, if you knock it across the record and it scrapes, you will damage the record, usually that part will always skip.

I think the ortofon carts are exactly the same, no matter what colour, or whether you by concordes or OM or what colour you originally by.

I have the basic silver carts, the pros. I've used the blue DJ S stylus with them and they sounded the same as when I used them matched to the blue cartridges.

I've heard a few times recently that the Concorde carts are a gimmick and you're better off buying the OM carts and mounting them on a proper Technics head shell. Would save you some cash that way too.

The arms can break off Concordes pretty easily and my four year old ones are starting to come apart where the arm s to the bit that sits in the tonearm. They have been being used at least 20-30 hours a week for four years though.

They still work fine and sound great. I've gone back the cheaper silver stylus now, as they don't ruin my vinyl as quickly.
If you do break an arm off your Concorde, a cable tie cut to length will work fine as a replacement.

Sure White Label:
Quite nice also, good tracking, loud output, bright high end. I'd say similar to the Blue "disco" stylus for the Old Stanton 500 carts. I only use these at home, as my flatmate has a pair. They are very delicate, and as such, if, like me, you are a little clumsy or drink a bit when playing, or are heavy handed, they may need replacing a little more often than the Ortofons.

Hope this helps. Let us know what you decide.

Try searching the forum mate ;-)

To sum it up, I have used all the above carts and a shit load more except the White Label

To put it simply I would go with the 35X or a Ortofon Arkiv which is a DJ E (NO Concorde but OM)

The 35X is a white label stylus in a different cart, the WLB uses an all in one design that's miles better than a Concorde due to it's weight distribution and also the cart is derived from the legendary hi-fi classic V15!
What makes it lame (and the 35X) is a Spherical stylus which robs it of any detail...it's nice but also quite bland to listen to. But playback is good with good tracking and minimal sibilance.
Very friendly on wax, tracks great and at 2.5G's it's nicccee! Had this one for about a year after I got fed up of the screeching highs and sibilance of my old Night Club E mk1's
All in all I think the 35X is the best all rounder imo and every one of my friends who I recommended it to have been pretty much converted to it. Wayyyy better than a DJ S imo, a bit more fragile but you ain't jack the ripper and the music you play I don't see you doing any DMC shit on it hahah

The DJ S isn't much better...I would describe it as I have cotton wool in my ears compared to a Stanton 680EL which is how I described it years ago when I did the switch..the only other thing is the DJ S tracks more heavy and has a really crap cantilever (Telescopic design where one tube is shrouded in another to make it more tough! Which increases stylus tip mass, gay)
The most neutral Ortofon is the Pro

M44G don't have a thing on the 35X sound wise

Arkiv...It's a DJ E...so that means it has the DJ S cantilever but you gain two things over the carts you mentioned and one thing the Night Club E mk1 doesn't have!

1. Elliptical shape stylus
2. Softer Suspension than the NCE mk1 and 2! That means it's able to track highs better and thus a lot less sibilant than the Night Club E..getting rid of a lot of it's harshness but still keeping it's nice open midrange and clarity.

What you loose is a nice cantilever but hey everything now days seems to be a compromise.

Your choice though...35X or OM Arkiv or if you find a OM DJ E...I like blue better than white ;-)

From the now deleted ortofon topic: vinyl_junkie07 says:

"I know from a person who used to work for Ortofon that they were ALL the same bodies, all the old rage; Pro, Pro S, DJ s, DJ e, Night Club s, Night Club e ALL used the same OM/Concorde body just a different stylus, Ortofon just want you to spend more money.
The Arkiv is a DJ E but painted white other wise it's 100% the same.
Some of the new carts have Super OM bodies i.e. Q-Bert, Digitrack

All the old OM bodies were the same, this was even d for the hi-fi market as you could buy a OM-10 and OM-30, the pro versions use the SAME bodies but with different styluses, of course after the OM line they had Super OM's but the DJ line always stayed with the old skool and cheaper to make standard OM body.
OM stands for Optimal Match

You can mix match styluses on the Q-Bert,but it will sound different to using it on a standard OM body to what the original stylus would of come on and most likely sound better as the Super was a improved design of the original OM.
I have never used a super om so I can't say

I don't understand why you would want a Night Club E mk2 either heheh The mk1 was better, the mk2 is just meant to take more shit and be less prone to in a mad loud environment nothing to do with better sound at all.
The Gold which is their most expensive rip-off albeit "best" cart is a Night Club E mk1 but Gold Plated woot woot lol Gaining a lot there in bling bling"

one last question ... i have concorde pros (black) - i am intenting to sell these to fund the purchase of new carts - primarily ones that have lower tracking force (ie the shures @ 1.5-3g compared to the pro's 4g). am i better off though keeping the concorde body of the pros and sticking an Arkiv E tip on them (even at tracking weight of 4g still?).

i dont scratch at all - but am a little hesitiant on the back-cueing of using an E tip.

cheers

I don't get it you see, I run the Om Pro s blacks at 3 Grams and they are fine. I have replaced my Stanton and Shure line with Ortofon now just cos the Arkiv E.
I use the Arkiv stylus mainly but for general messing about and practice mixing I use the black Pro stylus cos I can give them shit.. I know they recommend 4G's but it just seems very excessive to me! The funny thing is they track fine at 3.

The 35x is nice...they track very light, wish Orotofon could get this through their head!! But compared to the 35x the Arkiv leaves it in the dust sound wise...you get so much more punch, dynamics, stereo image is big, crispy top end, and the bass isn't flabby or muddy but really tight. If you don't mind not having uber great sound the 35X is a great needle and it's amazingly priced, I would recommend these to most people. Saying that they don't sound bad and imo better than most of Ortofon's spherical tip offerings and it's VERY kind on your records.

You won't have to track the Arkiv at 4G, it's recommended you track them at 3, and it seems to work well at this.

You have Concordes so I don't know how they will perform as some one else said they had some minor issues cueing using Concordes with the Arkiv tip, there is a reason for this as I explained in this topic but i'll copy and paste the bit for you.
http://www.discogs.sie.com/groups/topic/205154

"You are using Concodes and the mass is at the rear of the cart so it will play differently, that is why the Shure White Label (another integrated design like the Concorde only better) has a forward mass design..were it's more effective.
Here is something taken from the Shure website:

"What's forward mass design?
It's a term we coined after researching the trackability, tone arm resonance, and cartridge performance of each product in the market in relation to the particular product's center of gravity. We found that headshell-mounted cartridges resulted in a better tone arm resonance and those products had a center of gravity closest to the diamond. Taking into consideration the nature of headshell-mounted cartridges and the physics that naturally surround them, we included these characteristics into the Whitelabel design."

One thing with the OM Ortofon's is...this has to be the MOST ANNOYING fiddly arsehole cart I ever had to fit! lol The Shure's are piss easy and the Stanton's are very easy to mount, but the OM's are a complete a*hole to get straight and screw up.

This are the only carts I use now...
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/vinyl_junkie_2007/PA175403.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/vinyl_junkie_2007/pros.jpg

I still miss the ol'Stanton beasts but really the Arkiv I hate to say it is pretty much better sonically....
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/vinyl_junkie_2007/PA300041.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/vinyl_junkie_2007/PC290188.jpg

^^^What he said about 3 grams being enough weight. When I have fresh needles I go even a little lighter down to 2 1/2. I have my tone arm hieght set at 3 and the carts mounted about a third of the way back on the headshell.you may need to go heavier at lower hieght but I've always had really good luck with the settings I use. It seems to treat the records fine and always tracks really well.

what are the thoughts on the ortofon digitracks? i may be able to get these ridiculously cheap, so wondered if they'd be worth a shot ...

OK, ive done a lot of digging in google and these are the options:

shure whitelabels - i can get a pair for £100
M35X plus headshells (i dont have original headshells) - £90
OM Pro cart plus arkiv stylus, plus headshells - £130 odd
keep my existing pro s concordes, buy a pair of arkiv styus - £75
pair of lightly used OM digitracks, plus headshells - £100

one other consideration would be maintenance ... shure needles are MUCH cheaper to replace, as are the OM carts if they ever break ...

thoughts?

Ok, first up no point even considdering the 35X is there is only a £10 difference between that and the White Label.. The 35X doesn’t offer any advantages sound wise over the WLB but the WLB does offer some advantages over the 35X..only small as the actual cart is better, the reason I usualy recommend the 35X over the other is price and usualy it's more reliable in clubs. Yes Technics headshells are a rip-off! But they are the ones to go for. I'm not a big fan of the Concorde design so the OM Pro+Arkiv would be nice, I have no experience with the Arkiv on a Concorde body but some one said it's a bit wobbly like. Don't forget you can sell your concordes on ebay for loads, people love the "looks" of these things, so you can make some of your money back from that. I would narrow it down between the WLB and Arkiv tip or OM body+arkiv

yeah, i actually have the concorde pros on ebay as we speak. should get a decent amount as i have the box, case, instructions and brush. wish id have put it on for more though; the start bid was £50 ...

looking like the whitelabels then, and maybe when i have a few extra ££ to burn i might toy with that OM pro and arkiv tip. the only off putting thing is the cost of ortofons bastard stylus, £38 each compared to a whitelabels half of that.

its a shame i dont have the original headshells (they didnt come with any when i bought the 1210) as getting a pair of OM pro S for £20 would have been ideal.

I hope you guys mounting your cartridges are using one of these to calibrate them! http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/mobile_fidelity_geodisc2.jpg

Otherwise its very likely you are not tracking in the optimal position of the record and will not be listening to the best sound possible as well as possibly damaging the groove walls of the records

Nope we are using the one that came with out Technics turntables...

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl;jsessionid=0a0105501f4311bddd452d9a485ea1d5881b2abd50c9.e3eSc34OaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Tbhr0?id=6210&c=ACCT106601&h=44b3b41a6d3e3b87fab2

It's specifically made for the arm length of the 1200, it's overhang is set to 52mm

Neither one is right or wrong (Geo Disk vs Technics), the Geo Disk just uses different alignment points than the Technics one to sound better at different parts of the wax with minimal distortion/tracking error and so does the Technics.
The Technics alignment tool will give you less distortion at the inner points of the wax if I can right.
There are only two points on vinyl with a standard arm that have 0% tracking errors

It's a subject that can fry your head, luckily the Technics gauge sounds alright

For the record, I rely on the Technics alignment jig these days. There's no reason not to use a two-point gauge if you prefer and neither is "wrong" inasmuch as there is no such thing as perfect alignment with any pivoting arm. All you can do is choose where you want to minimize tracking error most. Try both and see which works best.

Interesting Read..

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

Interesting Read..

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

vinyl_junkie07
Nope we are using the one that came with out Technics turntables...

http://www.needledoctor.com/co...44b3b41a6d3e3b87fab2

Aaaah! That's what it is for. I always wondered what that odd thingy was. LOL

I have just tried the Barewald alligment thats modified for the 1200 and guess what... Shit is better! I only have 3 shells, two fitted with Ortofon OM's and one still with one old Stanton 680...got loads of Stanton's about but thought i'll mess with the Stanton as it's easier.
I aligned it to the Barewald/Techincs and put on the crappiest record that always made the stylus skip on the Techincs aligment and shit plays all the way through without any skipping! But the B side the loud peaks still make it skip but not as much as before..deff an improvement

I'm gona try the OM!

There is a definite improvement on the Ortofon too, you get hardly any skipping on extremely loud records now....Some tracks still cause issues but it's a lot less, other tracks are now ok.
I need to get one of those Hi-Fi news test records although I think some of these Omar S records are just like those torture tracks as they are called lol

vinyl_junkie07
I think some of these Omar S records

which one are you having trouble with? I want to see if i can make my setup skip too! (which i haven't been able to do)

mrmrb
which one are you having trouble with? I want to see if i can make my setup skip too! (which i haven't been able to do)

Om Pro play them fine, Shure play them fine, some Stanton's play them fine depending on the suspension used!

I hate Orotfon, their specs mean shit..The Pro s is actually more compliant than the Arkiv and it don't need 4G's, Shure do the same...the 97 what ever is called no longer is manufactured to the printed specs.

Any way few tracks that suck.

Omar S-The Further you look the less you will see (Both sides suck but one more than the other)

Warren Harris-Time Hotel EP (Side A last track a bit gay)

Creepy Autograph-Erase In Mind EP (Night Stalker)

and a Carl Finlow record I got had major issues playing on a Shure M-35X

vinyl_junkie07
Omar S-The Further you look the less you will see (Both sides suck but one more than the other)

Warren Harris-Time Hotel EP (Side A last track a bit gay)

Nice, going to give these 2 the TD-1200 test :P and 30's with 1.5g's. I can think of one record which gave me issues with the ncemk2's 'ewan jansen - blueline summer, moods & grooves' but that seems fine now *grin*

It's now doing my head in now hahah

Cueing is an absolute bitch with the new overhang setting, wobble wobble galore on the Ortofon Arkiv, might go back to the usual Techincs way.
This needle pisses me off, it sounds great but still can't track that well...better than the NCE but shit me man I can't play my favorite tunes cos some idiot cut them too loud then some other idiot can't make a proper cart haha.
It's not all my records ok but 4-7 records out of 800 still fucks me off, I know it sounds like i'm going off on one but if it could play them it could also handle highs better....I wish

What is funny is the printed specs for Ortofon are always wack, the OM Pro that cheapy crap sounding spherical needle out tracks the Arkiv and it's suspension is actually softer in real life! I got both here Arkiv and Pro S, one as a cheap day to day and Arkiv when I'm going to record a mix or want to actually enjoy the sound lol
The Pro S is also less sibilant too hahah a god damn spherical!

Ortofon are so fucking thick as shit....What WE want..not idiot hard house club DJ's or DMC world champions want is actually a simple needle like the Pro but with a elliptical tip..simple!
But no....Make a stupid compromise in every one of them...ohh we will give them a elliptical but lets make it really stupid so it can take abuse like a Hiroshima attack..now the Cantilever won't ever snap and who cares it sounds shit it's tougher than shit!

Going back to the standard Techincs setting, seems to work best for mixing.

Yo dj Frankie Bones why don't you ask Ortofon to make a custom needle for you and shit but actually really make a fucking great one with their help...DJ Kentaro and Q-Bert have sucky needles of their own.

The Arkiv is great but can be improved up on with existing cheap Ortofon technology, the less you do to a cart the better in some ways...That's why the Pro is still the better one out of all their range just shame about the ball point pen tip..

vinyl_junkie07
It's now doing my head in now hahah

Uh ohh research and settings, if it aint broke, don't fix it :P (i have a feeling google is being hit hard)

vinyl_junkie07
Cueing is an absolute bitch with the new overhang setting

You need the td1200 fluid damping kits ;) I can scratch like a drunken baboon *weeee monkey want banana wigga wigga sc sc scratcccch!*

Back to those 2 records, they played fine the whole way through, didn't surprise me as i didn't recall having any issues with them

Yea man I can scratch fine on using the overhang given from the Technics gauge, one big difference is your OM-30's are actually lovely cars heheh The Arkiv is compromised for DJ use
but most of all is this

Compliance, dynamic, lateral 25 µm/mN on the OM 30...now compare that to the Arkiv at Ortofon's generous for a DJ cart 9 µm and you will see why they track better and you can play all your records...also the fluid dampers help a lot!

vinyl_junkie07
Interesting Read..

http://www.vinylengine.com/car...nt-protractors.shtml

Cool link , thanks for that didnt know there were free able versions...

mrmrb
You need the td1200 fluid damping kits ;)

These look very interesting ... How difficult is it to install ? Whats the going price for the 1200 version?

ajtonic
These look very interesting ... How difficult is it to install ? Whats the going price for the 1200 version?

Very easy to install - although i did have 1 issue, on the base of the tone arm assembly i have 1 small circular dot which can if not installed carefully raise the trough so the paddle arm will scrape against the bottom and thats not good! Otherwise it took 10 mins, expensive tho, $150 or so, but my turntables are pretty modified, infact they are VERY modified by now, and i am running audiophile carts and needles on them so to me it made sense and i am happy with the results (not so much with the sound but tracking).

oh link

http://www.kabusa.com/td1200in.htm

I've been debating those dampers for ages...might get some one day after I get the studio sorted.

What else have you done to your 1200 mrmrb? If say you can get jiggy jiggy with the OM-30 and TD-1200 that sounds good to me ;-)
I'm not too happy with most DJ carts out there sound wise but I don't want to be a fucking old geek with a beard that spends $1000 on a cart to never use it cos it's too expensive or good..by which time you would have no friends lol so the TD1200 looks like a good option hahah simple and although not cheap it's doesn't break the bank too much either.
I would use the Audio Technica 440MLa, better cart to me and I know some folks that already use it for mixing with no damper kit! If I ever get to this stage though who knows hahah

I'm in the Vinyl is fun camp and don't have to spend loads to sound good ;-) Untill 2010 that is cos you can hardly find a good DJ needle lol and lets not get into vinyl...all 3 new records I got today are fucked, two have too much surface noise/loud crackle all the way through and the other is warped!

vinyl_junkie07
two have too much surface noise/loud crackle

that's happened to me a few times recently with brand new records. What up with that?

mods include full remove of ground wire, re-wire rca's with XLO rca (mmm), tone arm re-wire, tune of tone arm bearings (dont attempt this unless you know what you are doing and have the right tools), frequency counter and multimeter pitch range and gain (all calibrations), clean pitch control faders, deck plates red, td1200 fd kits, ortofon 30's, i guess other things like making sure the surface they are on is 100% flat (not really a mod) and other little bits and pieces like removing the sticker off the patter so its more slippy (not really a mod). Considering changing the entire tone arms soon but for some reason i don't mind the technics arm, and external power supply. edit, forgot, just looked at them and i did the pop up lights too not long ago :)

vinyl_junkie07
OM-30 and TD-1200 that sounds good to me ;-)

Audio Technica 440MLa, sounds good to me! That with or without the td1200 kits and you would be sitting pretty. What country are the 'new vinyls' from?...I heard this rumor that in its still legal to use virgin vinyl, while in the usa it is banned because during the process it produces carcinogenic compounds. And virgin vinyl will always sound better, but anyway that Never has had any impact on me buying vinyl from any country and i really don't see much difference. Whenever i buy second hand records they are so dusty, like dust right in the grooves, have to give them a good cleaning before i can listen otherwise its like sitting around a campfire roasting marshmellows, that seems to be my issue these days, or second hand records that have been played with a nail connected to the tonearm.

All American import vinyl and it sucks ass lol The press is ok that's what's annoying, it sounds great but the quality of the actual vinyl is terrible.
I didn't know about the ban! I heard old stories of people finding bits of old labels in the vinyl lol

vinyl_junkie07
heard old stories of people finding bits of old labels in the vinyl lol

Yeah, recycled vinyl with poorly removed labels (or even not removed at all) seems to be a known cause for noisy records.

konkordski
Yeah, recycled vinyl with poorly removed labels (or even not removed at all) seems to be a known cause for noisy records.

My re-press of Ron Trent's Altered States is the green see through vinyl on Prescription and you can see it has small bits of paper in the actual vinyl lol nice eh hahah

vinyl_junkie07
My re-press of Ron Trent's Altered States is the green see through vinyl on Prescription and you can see it has small bits of paper in the actual vinyl lol nice eh hahah

I guess the paper that you can see is a bad thing, but i think there must be alot of contaminants you cannot see such as dust particles, mould spores, insect larvae, random fuzz etc etc. Nice record tho! I think all these artifacts of vinyl are pleasant but i am struggling with the 2nd hand records that could sound almost pristine if they were just given a good cleaning. I found that gruv glide works well if you dont have a machine and i have been using that till it all ran out, need to grab more.

little update ...

i sold my carts for £75 ... intended to get the shure whitelabels as i could get a pair for £100 ... BUT ... the shop only has ONE of them available (@£50) ... so i thought next, get the M35X for £50 and bite the bullet and get 2 headshells for £40 ... BUT! they only have ONE of those too!

ARGGH, so now im not sure what to do. the cheapest i can find another single whitelabel is around £80 (so £130 altogether), i can get another M35X for £40, so that would be £105 including headshells ...

OR, a pair of concorde DJ S for £100
OR, a pair of OM nightclub S (or mk 1) and headshells for £110.

right ... it's come down to either

Arkiv OMs (£98 a pair)
Nightclub S/mk1 (£75 a pair. S tip)
M35X (£65 a pair)

?

ok update ... TODAY i bought a pair of shure whitelabels ... £138. attempted to get a pair of M35X then M25C unsuccessfully (would you believe, 3 different companies only had one of each in stock!? argh) so thought why not pay a little extra for the better cart ...

i have set them up .... arm height 4, anti skate 0, tracking 3g ... will leave the needle on a record overnight and test tomorrow ...

jujhimup
will leave the needle on a record overnight and test tomorrow ...

Why not just break them in naturally?

I really dislike those Shure WHTELBLS. Those things already look dated and don't like to stay on the groove.

djfrankiebones
Shure WHTELBLS

I've had to play on them a couple times. I think they are crap personally. I bring my own carts now.