Clannad Seanchas - Master

https://www.discogs.sie.com/master/2533261-Clannad-Seanchas

Depite me removing the Spanish cd from the master; it keeps getting added

That's because they belong in the same master. Different B-sides, artwork, different version/edit do not matter - not if there is no other reason to keep them separate. Both have the release title "Seanchas" and both are singles (essentially) promoting the same album, even when one doesn't mention the album. Singles in general are released to promote some long-form release. "Extraido de su CD Lore" does not make that release a promo and somehow 'different'. It is not an album sampler.

Master releases don't have strict rules, there are guidelines describing what's usually expected of them. The main thing is that similar releases are collected in them. Here we have two singles with the same release title - which is good enough. See the wording in RSG §16.2.1.: "Releases that match two or more of the following will probably be eligible to belong to the same Master release." Those are not strict requirements.

Reasons for keeping the releases apart would be some of the B-sides / additional tracks being the main track in another master. Neither I don't see any harm with the master.

[edit: bold fix]

jopla2
That's because they belong in the same master. Different B-sides, artwork, different version/edit do not matter - not if there is no other reason to keep them separate. Both have the release title "Seanchas" and both are singles (essentially) promoting the same album, even when one doesn't mention the album. Singles in general are released to promote some long-form release. "Extraido de su CD Lore" does not make that release a promo and somehow 'different'. It is not an album sampler.

Master releases don't have strict rules, there are guidelines describing what's usually expected of them. The main thing is that similar releases are collected in them. Here we have two singles with the same release title - which is good enough. See the wording in RSG §16.2.1.: "Releases that match two or more of the following [b]will probably be eligible[b] to belong to the same Master release." Those are not strict requirements.

Reasons for keeping the releases apart would be some of the B-sides / additional tracks being the main track in another master. Neither I don't see any harm with the master.

No for 3 reasons

1 it was a single, and the artwork was cut (ie cut out) of the official music video

2 a single would use single version, not the album version technically

The spanish cd is not the same as if it was, the artwork would be for the single release. Instead the lore artwork was used which tells me it's a cd where 3 album tracks are included.

Then you haven't read the guidelines. Just because it has the same title doesn't mean it's the same master.

16.2.1. Releases that match two or more of the following will probably be eligible to belong to the same Master release:

jopla2
Both have the release title "Seanchas" and both are singles (essentially) promoting the same album, even when one doesn't mention the album.

Are you for real?

Extraido de su CD Lore = Extracted from Lore, and they used the title and artwork for Lore

https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/4663220-Runrig-Live-Taken-From-The-Live-Album-Once-In-A-Lifetime/image/SW1hZ2U6OTM3MDQzMQ== - You wouldn't put this in the album master because the same artwork was used. The Seanchas from Spain uses the Lore artwork ie promoting Lore as if it wasn't it wouldn't say Extraido de du CD Lore

The tracks don't have to be exactly the same, what counts most is the main track:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/master/2533261-Seanchas/history#latest

A very strong detail ing the same master is cat#. It is the same in both release: 74321 37798 2.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/4663220-Runrig-Live-Taken-From-The-Live-Album-Once-In-A-Lifetime/image/SW1hZ2U6OTM3MDQzMQ== - You wouldn't put this in the album master because the same artwork was used. The Seanchas from Spain uses the Lore artwork ie promoting Lore as if it wasn't it wouldn't say Extraido de du CD Lore

That is a promo single, essentially a sampler. Those never go in the same master as the parent album. No one is proposing the Seanchas singles belong in the Lore master.

MusicNutter
2 a single would use single version, not the album version technically

That often happens but doesn't make a difference here. What counts is the recording. A re-recording wouldn't go in the same master as original recording. The track can also be remixed for a single which does not prevent using the same master. Singles are often released with different artwork in different territories, which does not prevent using the same master.

We should look at what's common to the releases and what s same master. We have the same recording, same main track, same release title, same release year, same cat#, same physical format, same 'market' format (single). The additional tracks don't present reasons preventing using the same master.

I don't buy it

I don't buy it

I think you're missing the point of what master releases are about. It's simply a display function to gather similar releases together. No one will have trouble locating the two releases when they are in the same master. They have more similarities than differences.

This was already discussed in a previous threads:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/718619

There, 6 s same master:
el_duro

3 s are against:
tsivihcra

Based on sub-history activity, also ing:
kai81

against:
6006 [inactive]

ing: 12 + me = 13
Against: 4

Doesn't that ratio tell you anything?

I been here long enough to know what makes something a master release. Yes it might have the same title But the artwork gives it away. You wouldn't normally use the album artwork on a single. Also wouldn't the Spanish cd title track use a single version. But no they used the album version, all tracks are the album versions.

These s have discussing master release related topics recently in the forums, feel free to add your opinion.
tpvb
thanks

Both releases share the same cat#. If there was a hesitation whether or not to place them under the same MR, this gives the answer IMO.

+1 for same MR.

Not a Clannad expert, but the band I do know about had a similar situation
https://www.discogs.sie.com/master/74339-Japan-The-Art-Of-Parties

The majority of the singles in this MR have the single or 12" version, different b-sides and so on. However the Spanish single (which is allegedly only a promo) has the album version of the song, as well as a b-side that was an a-side in the UK.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/1277877-Japan-The-Art-Of-Parties-El-Arte-De-Las-Fiestas

Completely different artwork too. However it makes sense for me to have them together in the same MR due to the title of the lead track being the same.

Yes, as with Clannad it is clear that they are different releases, but in of useful information on the database for collectors and sellers, it makes sense for them to be together.

One benefit of releases being in the same MR is that it makes it easier for people to find titles and variants, and compare them using the "Find Your Version" selection which displays the sleeves as well as a snapshot of key information.

vormloos
Both releases share the same cat#. If there was a hesitation whether or not to place them under the same MR, this gives the answer IMO.

I don’t know. This same cat# fact seems like it should be significant, but if you go through RSG §16.2.1, AFAICT these 2 CDs only meet 1 criteria (same title), so it shouldn’t qualify.

The Extraido de su CD "Lore" text inficates to me that the spanish release is a sampler and as such should not be in the MR of the album nor single.

No idea why it have Picture Disc in the FTF thou.

This sub's release history is wild. It seems like Forum Thread #718619), but has posted two more threads on the subject and has edited it back and forth several times since then. On the merits, it's a close call but I think these probably don't belong in the same MR.

Nevertheless, I vote that they belong in the same MR because I think it's bad for people to discuss an issue in the forum and then ignore the majority opinion when they don't like the result. It would also be bad to reward that kind of behavior by reconsidering the earlier discussion. I don't think it's inherently wrong to bring up previously discussed topics in the forum again after a few years to see if the temperature has changed, but I don't think it's good to reconsider when the decision is a close call and the person asking has been misbehaving.

themagictouch
This sub's release history is wild. It seems like MusicNutter lost a vote in the first thread about this four years ago (Forum Thread #718619), but has posted two more threads on the subject and has edited it back and forth several times since then. On the merits, it's a close call but I think these probably don't belong in the same MR.

Nevertheless, I vote that they belong in the same MR because I think it's bad for people to discuss an issue in the forum and then ignore the majority opinion when they don't like the result. It would also be bad to reward that kind of behavior by reconsidering the earlier discussion. I don't think it's inherently wrong to bring up previously discussed topics in the forum again after a few years to see if the temperature has changed, but I don't think it's good to reconsider when the decision is a close call and the person asking has been misbehaving.

Weird reply.

The Spanish cd is a sampler per se; and shouldn't be part of the master it would seem

MusicNutter
The Spanish cd is a sampler per se

It is not, which has been told to you several times by now. "Extraido de su CD Lore" (=taken from the CD Lore) doesn't make it a sampler. Text like that is quite typical on singles, which often are released to promote some long-form release. Some examples:
Joni Mitchell - Chinese Cafe

The fact that the cover art is the same doesn't make it a sampler either.

These are typical samplers:
Oasis (2) - 5 Tracks Taken From The Forthcoming Album 'Definitely Maybe'

"a sampler is a free or low-priced preview of a larger release(s)"
https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/formatslist

themagictouch
This sub's release history is wild. It seems like MusicNutter lost a vote in the first thread about this four years ago (Forum Thread #718619), but has posted two more threads on the subject and has edited it back and forth several times since then. On the merits, it's a close call but I think these probably don't belong in the same MR.

Nevertheless, I vote that they belong in the same MR because I think it's bad for people to discuss an issue in the forum and then ignore the majority opinion when they don't like the result. It would also be bad to reward that kind of behavior by reconsidering the earlier discussion. I don't think it's inherently wrong to bring up previously discussed topics in the forum again after a few years to see if the temperature has changed, but I don't think it's good to reconsider when the decision is a close call and the person asking has been misbehaving.

Weird reply.

The Spanish cd is a sampler per se; and shouldn't be part of the master it would seem

Silvermo
The Extraido de su CD "Lore" text inficates to me that the spanish release is a sampler and as such should not be in the MR of the album nor single.

No idea why it have Picture Disc in the FTF thou.

Exactly

I don't know anything of Clannad's output, so I just examine the two singles conform the Guidelines.
The same lead track/release title (that one is the album track and the other is a single edit is quite common; also 12" remixes and 7" edits can belong to the same master), related artwork, the same cat.#. So far the images show, I can't find any proof on the Spanish artwork that this is a sampler. So I would vote in favor of the same Master Release.
I agree with speccydoughboy that in of useful information for collectors and sellers, it makes sense to put these two together.
I agree with themagictouch that it's bad for the database to discuss an issue in the forum and then ignore the majority opinion when they don't like the result. Nothing weird about that.

jopla2
ing: 12 + me = 13
Against: 4

Doesn't that ratio tell you anything?

Yes, it tells me a lot of people haven't read and understood the relevant Guideline 16.2.1:

To be in the same master release two of the following conditions must be met:

Has the same artwork (including derivatives); - No
Has the same tracklisting (the same recordings or versions, not totally different recordings); - No
Has the same Release title (including translations); or - Yes
Is a re-release, promo, colored vinyl edition, special edition, instrumental version, remix, multilingual Release version (for example, Kraftwerk's Computer World) or other such variation - No

In addition, with edited versions vs. album versions I don't believe we have any tracks at all with the same recordings.

I believe that the idea behind the MR includes all releases that it can, so my vote is that it should be included.
Different versions are eligible, per old comments from nik.

MusicNutter
The Spanish cd is a sampler per se

It is not. "Extraido de su CD Lore" (=taken from the CD Lore) doesn't make it a sampler, or the fact that the tracks are from the album, or that the cover art is the same. These are typical samplers:
Oasis (2) - The Masterplan Sampler

Fauni-Gena
Yes, it tells me a lot of people haven't read and understood the relevant Guideline 16.2.1:

To be in the same master release two of the following conditions must be met:

The GL actually gives us a lot of freedom. Those four points are not strict criteria that have be met. It simply says if two of the four points apply, the releases probably belong together.

jopla
The GL actually gives us a lot of freedom. Those four points are not strict criteria that have be met. It simply says if two of the four points apply, the releases probably belong together.

Read the Guideline again. It uses the word must.

Fauni-Gena
Read the Guideline again. It uses the word must.

Reading the Guidelines, searching for the word 'must', there are zero (0) results for the word 'must'.

[edit: typos]

jopla2
must

RSG §1.1.1 (1)

SA1950
RSG §1.1.1 (1)

I mean RSG §16.2.1.

Example of a single which is hugely different in different countries, and correctly in the same master:
ABBA - Fernando
All have different B-side, different art, different label, different cat#. What's common is that all are "Fernando" singles from 1976.

Totally different

MusicNutter
Totally different

Yes, they are different. They only have release title, format and release year in common, not also label and cat# like the two "Seanchas" singles.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

berothbr
I don’t know. This same cat# fact seems like it should be significant, but if you go through RSG §16.2.1, AFAICT these 2 CDs only meet 1 criteria (same title), so it shouldn’t qualify.

Thanks & interesting to find out that- same cat# is not mentioned on GL.

same cat# = same product = same release. Is it not?

vormloos
same cat# = same product = same release. Is it not?

Although this would make sense, RSG §16.2.1 suggests otherwise.

berothbr
vormloossame cat# = same product = same release. Is it not?Although this would make sense, RSG §16.2.1 suggests otherwise.

2 needs to be met it seems. All that connects is the title. Doesn't have same recordings. I'm not suggesting that album versions cant be placed on the same master of the single has a single edit. The Spanish one are all album versions, and the back cover seems to indicate it's a cd to promote the album Lore despite promo not mentioned

MusicNutter
2 needs to be met it seems. All that connects is the title. Doesn't have same recordings. I'm not suggesting that album versions cant be placed on the same master of the single has a single edit. The Spanish one are all album versions, and the back cover seems to indicate it's a cd to promote the album Lore despite promo not mentioned

If you have absolutely no new insight to share, let's just put this issue to bed, ok?

ing same master: 18 s.
Against same master: 7 s.

jopla2
MusicNutter2 needs to be met it seems. All that connects is the title. Doesn't have same recordings. I'm not suggesting that album versions cant be placed on the same master of the single has a single edit. The Spanish one are all album versions, and the back cover seems to indicate it's a cd to promote the album Lore despite promo not mentioned
If you have absolutely no new insight to share, let's just put this issue to bed, ok?

ing same master: 18 s.
Against same master: 7 s.

I'm going via the guidelines. nik can always chip in. It makes no sense. We go by the guidelines; not pick and choose how we see fit. The only thing that connects is the title. Surely the a-side would be the single edit on the Spanish issue, but no - Many singles have a single edit (a shortened version) for airplay, radio etc. Very rarely is a album version used. Yes, if it's a promo. Quite rare to have a album version used in a single

It's evident here and by looking at the sub-histories that you're in the minority here. Several different s keep combining the releases, but you keep separating them, 7 and 5 times in the two releases (check sub-histories). You've started two forum discussions before this. The first didn't produce a clear result (3 for same master, 3 against) - but you kept removing the master release despite of it. Last year you started a second forum topic. Result: 4 same master, 2 are against. You keep removing the master. This new topic: 6 for same master, 4 against. Round and round it goes.

For that I'm glad you've called in Staff.

What comes to the master being "contentious, confusing or difficult" (and not being eligible because of that), I don't think that would be based on facts. The master has no problems. Repeating the same arguments and not budging from them, regardless of several other s telling you otherwise, is no discussion.

Adding to the total the s who have either added the master (for), or removed it (against), or otherwise expressed their opion in the sub-histories, the numbers are even clearer for the master: 18 : 7.

Repeating (myself and others' points), the releases have the same Release title, Cat#, Format (physical and "marketing"), Release year and Barcode. Neither one is a Promo or a Sampler (despite claims). One version being an edit has no importance. Statements like a 'single' has an edit and because the other one has three album versions and the text "taken from album" makes that a sampler, are false. One having the same front image as the album front does not make that a sampler of the album either, Fwiw, the other release uses a pic that's on the back of the booklet, so both use album art. The release you claim is a sampler is titled "Seanchas" (same as the other single), not "Lore" (the album). If the 3-track single were a sampler, why isn't the 2-track single a sampler just as well? It has two tracks taken from the album. To me it looks like you're just keen to perceive subjective differences, instead of seeing what makes the releases similar.

What is the harm in placing the two releases in the same master? Placing two singles in the same master is probably the most common master-related thing to do on Discogs. The master does not present any conflict, none of the additional tracks make them belong to other masters. None is an A-side elsewhere etc.

Fauni-Gena
jopla2ing: 12 + me = 13
Against: 4

Doesn't that ratio tell you anything?
Yes, it tells me a lot of people haven't read and understood the relevant Guideline 16.2.1:

To be in the same master release two of the following conditions must be met:

Has the same artwork (including derivatives); - No
Has the same tracklisting (the same recordings or versions, not totally different recordings); - No
Has the same Release title (including translations); or - Yes
Is a re-release, promo, colored vinyl edition, special edition, instrumental version, remix, multilingual Release version (for example, Kraftwerk's Computer World) or other such variation - No

In addition, with edited versions vs. album versions I don't believe we have any tracks at all with the same recordings.

Exactly

Fauni-Gena
people haven't read and understood the relevant Guideline 16.2.1:

To be in the same master release two of the following conditions must be met:

Has the same artwork (including derivatives); - No
Has the same tracklisting (the same recordings or versions, not totally different recordings); - No
Has the same Release title (including translations); or - Yes
Is a re-release, promo, colored vinyl edition, special edition, instrumental version, remix, multilingual Release version (for example, Kraftwerk's Computer World) or other such variation - No

jopla
The GL actually gives us a lot of freedom. Those four points are not strict criteria that have be met. It simply says if two of the four points apply, the releases probably belong together.

Fauni-Gena
Read the Guideline again. It uses the word must.

It does not. jopla has already quoted and reiterated the actual guideline RSG §16.2.1: "Releases that match two or more of the following will probably be eligible to belong to the same Master release."

Fauni-Gena
In addition, with edited versions vs. album versions I don't believe we have any tracks at all with the same recordings.

The guideline does not require "the same recordings," rather it says "the same recordings or versions, not totally different recordings" - it permits "instrumental version[s], remix[es], multilingual release version[s] [...] or other such variation[s]" to be grouped together. Edited tracks can also be grouped.

Further, RSG §16.2.2: "Master release is intended to contain as many releases as reasonable. For example, the tracklisting can vary (sometimes radically), but there should be an obvious connection between the releases."

OK, it'd agreed the cover (lore artwork) is a variation of Seanchas artwork, then by all means create a master release