new country: Worldwide

I finally did it.

Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such & create forum threads for any potential mass edits.

Diognes_The_Fox
I finally did it.

Bravo, bravo, bravo!!!
I have a good memory … but I it I don't when I saw this being asked for the first time.

Diognes_The_Fox
Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such & create forum threads for any potential mass edits.

… and a heartfelt Thank you for this as well!

Thank you.

I went ahead and applied the new choice to all the CDs in my collection that had Worldwide (or similar wording) on them.

Diognes_The_Fox
only use where it's clear if it's marked as such

So shouldn't be used for the various RSD releases?

They are not explicitly labelled "worldwide" but seemingly released across multiple countries.

Diognes_The_Fox
I finally did it.

Yay!

Should we add this new Worldwide "country" to the subs of digital files (for example iTunes files) with country blanked?
Or since iTunes isn't available in ALL countries in the world we should leave the country field blanked?

Fantástico, but clarifying we don’t use this when there is, as common, a US edition and one for the rest of the world (eg almost all major label physical releases now).

We still use the blank on the ROW edition. At least that is how I read the opening post.

Does someone understand what is meant as "worldwide"? Is it shipping?

pinkindustries
Does someone understand what is meant as "worldwide"? Is it shipping?

It doesn’t override the meaning of country in the guidelines, where country is the market it is domestically released in by a local record company. If a UK company ships worldwide they are effectively exporting it from the UK so it becomes an import when it gets to wherever and the country is UK.

However, if Universal press a record in Europe for all their global subsidiaries to release in their territories it’s a worldwide release. I’d still like clarification on what we do if there are two editions (or three, with Japan) as is often the case, as above. It would be great to have an actual guideline on this use.

Diognes_The_Fox
I finally did it.

Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such & create forum threads for any potential mass edits.

Job well done!

Opdiner
Fantástico, but clarifying we don’t use this when there is, as common, a US edition and one for the rest of the world (eg almost all major label physical releases now).

We still use the blank on the ROW edition. At least that is how I read the opening post.

Yeah, +1

I'll trust on y'all to work out usage specifics. I am quite swamped, but felt this was an easy victory off the list of prioritized big-deal projects I have on my plate.

PIng me back in if anything significant pops up or if there's a need to codify anything.

HoliestKaty
Should we add this new Worldwide "country" to the subs of digital files (for example iTunes files) with country blanked?
Or since iTunes isn't available in ALL countries in the world we should leave the country field blanked?

This is a really good question.

This feels a lot like a tag that will be missused/don’t really have a proper use.
Something staff have had as a argument for not adding it before.

But hopefully I’m wrong.

It would however be nice to have some guidance on when to use it. Releases that says world wide distrubution (or such) is ofcourse a good place to start. But will releases sold on bandcamp (for example) be eligable for the tag? Anything sold online, by the releaseing entery, that ships worldwide? Digital files? How would one go about to check if a release is avalable worldwide if it’s not stated? Or should the tag only be used when it’s stated it’s worldwide distrubution?

Even when there is marketing of xxx number worldwide. For major labels this may still mean a different European , and a US pressing. Will wait to see how this is going to be applied.
I think what might have been better would have been separate boxes for country of manufacture and distribution.

Duplicate post

Opdiner
It doesn’t override the meaning of country in the guidelines, where country is the market it is domestically released in by a local record company. If a UK company ships worldwide they are effectively exporting it from the UK so it becomes an import when it gets to wherever and the country is UK.

However, if Universal press a record in Europe for all their global subsidiaries to release in their territories it’s a worldwide release.

I completely agree with this.

Opdiner
I’d still like clarification on what we do if there are two editions (or three, with Japan) as is often the case, as above. It would be great to have an actual guideline on this use.

I agree, I think Dtf is asking us all to make some propositions ;)

Diognes_The_Fox
I'll trust on y'all to work out usage specifics.

Things I'm thinking at:
-As you state, I think it's important that the tag is to be used if the same version is distributed from different countries spread over the world (not necessarily from any single existing country, but spread out with the intention to have a good worldwide coverage.) And not to be used just because it is available to anybody in the world who orders it (be it wholesale or retail.) from the country, or countries where it is available. (so not for export/import scenarios, not for international wholesale or retail trade.)

-Something that is released worldwide, except in one or few countries, for some reason, I think should also be viable to use 'Worldwide', (but of course not if it's better covered by the other 'wide area' country choices). So it's possible to have a Worldwide version, next to a Japan version, for instance.
In such cases it should be encouraged to declare the exceptions in the notes (if known by the submitter)

-I think we should realize that 'worldwide' is not the same as 'everywhere in the world'. I'm thinking about countries in the world where art & music is not something that can be distributed freely due to harsh government or religious regulations, for instance. Or because of certain political, diplomatic, economic and/or military tensions. (Worldwide will seldom include North Korea, to name an example)

steve.fletcher
Even when there is marketing of xxx number worldwide. For major labels this may still mean a different European , and a US pressing.

I think the 'worldwide' tag would be to avoid if there is a different version for US & EU.

At the other hand, we might need to see what to do, if there's for instance: a worldwide version, except US + a US version.
Although I'm not aware if this scenario actually exists somewhere?

steve.fletcher
I think what might have been better would have been separate boxes for country of manufacture and distribution.

I this.
And checking countries, instead of a single selection from a list.
(or like the credits/lccn just the possibility to add more country fields, in define what role the country has (Country of release, Printed, Pressed in, Made in, ...)

Yay movement forward. Thank you.

Country and country of manufacture are two things where there is a big struggle. It's a major confusion point for most new s. Would love to see a Country of Manufacture listing.

Silvermo
This feels a lot like a tag that will be missused/don’t really have a proper use.
Something staff have had as a argument for not adding it before.

Oh yeah, I was really hung up on that, hence is being in the 'serious project' pile.

The more I thought about it though, stuff that are legitimately worldwide are currently being entered incorrectly most of the time anyways. 'Worldwide' is at least a better wrong answer than a completely wrong country (providing for whatever reason someone felt just leaving the field blank wasn't an option).

HoliestKaty
Or since iTunes isn't available in ALL countries in the world we should leave the country field blanked?

I'd probably go with something like "as worldwide as they legally can distribute" to keep NK & whatnot from gotcha-ing everything.

Diognes_The_Fox
I'd probably go with something like "as worldwide as they legally can distribute" to keep NK & whatnot from gotcha-ing everything.

iTunes content varies by country.

Diognes_The_Fox
I'd probably go with something like "as worldwide as they legally can distribute" to keep NK & whatnot from gotcha-ing everything.

Excellent.

berothbr
iTunes content varies by country.

What about Bandcamp?

Jarren
What about Bandcamp?

There is no way to limit countries AFAICS looking in the backend of my releases there.

Opdiner
There is no way to limit countries AFAICS looking in the backend of my releases there.

Ok good, so in future I will list all my Bandcamp digital purchases as Worldwide.

I agree that iTunes is very different. I've bought releases there that have had tracks removed due to territory licensing.

There was a tread some time ago about a bandcamp release that had different labels depending on where in the world the buyer was located. So it is possible to specify details depending on country on bandcamp aswell.

Silvermo
So it is possible to specify details depending on country on bandcamp aswell.

Yes, I was wrong above.
I use Bandcamp for Artists instead of Bandcamp for Labels and note that BfL offers:

Territorial licenses
Use territory licensing on Bandcamp to automatically direct sales to multiple partners around the world.

The question then arises of how do we know when that function is used?

I am friends with the of a Philippine group. A couple of years ago Pre pandemic they released a single online available On Amazon, ITunes, Spotify etc.
On the published release date I went to Amazon, and iTunes but was unable to complete the purchase and the release. I spoke to my friend who queried this with their management, and said it should be available.
After 48 hours of trying to , the issue was traced to the record company employee who had completed the agreements with the sites and had not ticked the box for worldwide availability thereby limiting the territory of release.
Within 48 hours it had been amended and available worldwide.

The point being, is that as the who s a file, there is no way we can be certain that a release is available worldwide and has not been limited to certain territories despite what pre release marketing there has been.

Ruddl_Tampon
'The sarcasm is strong in you, young oggers...'

I was being serious (for once).

Now the question is:
How can I go through my collection to find the ones with country-field empty, to check if country is worldwide or unknown?

Jarren
I was being serious (for once).

Same here … but looking at the comments makes me regret it.
Nearly Worldwide, not labelled as such, multiple countries – all the same now? Obviously a new RSG paragraph wouldn't be a bad idea. I see EIs, questionable mass edits and many threads coming otherwise.

Ruddl_Tampon
Friendly greetings and a happy new year: Mark

Mark!!!!!! That's a more than just pleasant surprise. Hope all is peachy.
Of course the same back to you … and as you can see I'm still wasting a relevant part of the rest of my life. Less than before – but still. But hellya, it was a failure anyway …

Thanks a bundle for the worldwide tag! This will be very useful and minimize the confusion for just leaving the field blank.

So - digital s that we previously left blank for the country can now be entered as worldwide? But only if we know the site we're ing from is generally free of any country restrictions?

As people are saying above, how do we know that? And if it is country restricted, we shouldn't have left the country field blank and should put the country we're ing it from, or the region.

Because if I understand, "blank" does not necessarily equal "worldwide", right? "Blank" just means unknown.

I'm confused!

baldorr
Because if I understand, "blank" does not necessarily equal "worldwide", right? "Blank" just means unknown.

Blank can also equal two or more countrys that isn't avalable as a combination in the country list. Say a release was released in Sweden and Thailand, that would be blank country.

The Worldwide tag would only be usable for releases that state they are avalable worldwide (and perhaps releases sold online worldwide, but that would be almost impossible to )

Silvermo
The Worldwide tag would only be usable for releases that state they are avalable worldwide (and perhaps releases sold online worldwide, but that would be almost impossible to )

So, I know we've all wanted this tag, but now that we have it.... are there actually any releases that are truly "worldwide"? Of course I'm not talking about the 'gotchas' of North Korea or Western Sahara or those types of places. But truly a unique release that's intended to be for essentially all countries in the world and distributed as such?

Or is this essentially a let down?

baldorr
But truly a unique release that's intended to be for essentially all countries in the world and distributed as such?

I'm guessing there are some releases/labels/distributurs that at least claim that they have WW distrubution. And with the ease of selling online I supose anything _could_ be considered a WW release (if the intended market is WW). But I see no real benefit from this tag as it surely will be missused alot (unless some clear guidence is given on when to use it).
I can of course be proven wrong in this, but I'm guessing this will replace the "blank" and not add anything posetive to the database, most likley it will just introduce more incorect data as non-WW releases will be taged WW insted on leaving the country field blank.

EDIT: I was/am on team "not having WW tag as it intruduces more problems than it solves and isn't really usefull" as staff was previously. So I'm a bit biased against the tag.

WWIII, whodathunkit?

We did at least get this instruction:

Diognes_The_Fox
Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such

but I'm guessing most s wont see this forum tread an apply it "randomly". This really needs a GL update (as does the UK & Europe tag) to specify when it can be used so we have something to point to when it's missused (not that linking guidelines always helps)

There are loads of releases that are genuinely worldwide. The majors do these all the time with things like their box sets and deluxe editions. Things like Universal International Music B.V. in large part exist to create these.

I wonder if nationalism will perhaps come into play, if someone sees "Worldwide" yet feels slighted because they don't feel their particular country received the requisite distro such tag implies. Back and forth Worldwide vs. Blank edits, here we come?

hatfulofelt
I wonder if nationalism will perhaps come into play, if someone sees "Worldwide" yet feels slighted because they don't feel their particular country received the requisite distro such tag implies.

I guess worldwide means available worldwide, no restrictions. If you live on Easter Island it's your call.

hatfulofelt
I wonder if nationalism will perhaps come into play, if someone sees "Worldwide" yet feels slighted because they don't feel their particular country received the requisite distro such tag implies.

The same people that that repeatedly see "Made in EU" as Country=Europe or Country=Netherlands etc. I wonder what % of the planet's vinyl that quartet of big European plants press these days?

Opdiner
I wonder what % of the planet's vinyl that quartet of big European plants press these days?

Yes, recently I imported some Folkways vinyl from the US. I was very satisfied by the flawless & dead silent pressing quality. Checking who pressed them, it seemed they were pressed by GZ in the Czech Republic.
I had the idea there were sufficient pressing good pressing plants in the US, but seems I was wrong.

Silvermo
but I'm guessing most s wont see this forum tread an apply it "randomly".

I'm actually not expecting too much problems/errors.. that is... not any more than we have now.
The country field has never been updated since discogs was born. It's still designed as a simple field to be used on electronic releases by smaller labels based on a single location.

Although the guidelines are clear, the submission form still shows "Country:" (without mentioning this should be the area of release). Until we have the option to define the nature of the entered country, a lot of guesswork or country of manufacture will be entered.

Actually, I also think we need a country tag "West Europe" for release before the iron curtain fell down. (Especially for the period in the eighties, were manufacturing wasn't done per locally per country)

Dr.SultanAszazin
Actually, I also think we need a country tag "West Europe" for release before the iron curtain fell down. (Especially for the period in the eighties, were manufacturing wasn't done per locally per country)

I'd agree with that. The universational of the record markets of Western Europe really gathered steam after the EU (or was it EEC) ruling on copyrights in early 1984.

I am work on classical box sets. The evidence is overwhelming that these box sets are distributed worldwide, in addition to being Limited Editions, neither of which is generally explicitly stated on the box itself.

Here’s a short list of classical box sets made in Europe ( and the Czech Republic) by Sony and Universal since about 2009:

Label boxes
Complete Recordings On Deutsche Grammophon & Decca

Conductor boxes
André Cluytens - The Complete Orchestral & Concerto Recordings

Performer boxes
Jascha Heifetz - The Complete Album Collection

Edit: that some are still available new years after first release means little. It just means the press run turned out to be a larger number than what the companies expected to sell.

Opdiner
Dr.SultanAszazinActually, I also think we need a country tag "West Europe" for release before the iron curtain fell down. (Especially for the period in the eighties, were manufacturing wasn't done per locally per country)

I'd agree with that. The universational of the record markets of Western Europe really gathered steam after the EU (or was it EEC) ruling on copyrights in early 1984.

I will add my agreement with that proposal.

Is 'Moonwide' next?.........

Opdiner
There are loads of releases that are genuinely worldwide. The majors do these all the time with things like their box sets and deluxe editions. Things like Paul & Linda McCartney - Ram only exist in one edition.

I get the point, but only one edition doesn't mean it's available (or in shops or marketed) everywhere.

wearyofwokewussies
Is 'Moonwide' next?.........

or Universal

Come to think of it, why restrict it to Earth? In a few years, when this planet is all f'ed up and we all have to move to Mars, we will be begging for the 'Solar System' tag.

Digital - when we've all discarded are bodies and exist as lossless files.

It doesn’t have to be available in shops for that to be the intended market. If the record company intended that it be available for a market then that’s it. Universal make all their global editions available to all their OpCos unless there are rights restrictions. That retail decided not to stock something or were unable to order it because of political reasons (eg. North Korea) doesn’t make the intended market not global.

Retail clients also have access to the vast online ordering database. For a lot of released items that’s as close to marketed as it gets. But it’s still the market the company released it for.

I’m often bemused when I see a global edition marked as UK, Europe and US. What evidence is there that UMG etc decided that only people there could buy their products? This, after all, is a company that sold EMI Records UK and European catalogues to Warners so they were allowed to keep China by the regulators.

I see no benefit in worklswide. An empty field was IMO completely ok.
But I see a lot of (pointless) discussions. "Less wrong" may be a good point, but is it realy less wrong?

Why, if something like this is introduced, aren't the RSG adjusted in a meaningful way right away. Are they sacred these days?

There is a similar problem with the runouts. There is a community decision and there are the RSG. Not necessarily contradictory, but everyone can interpret it as they wish. Something like this gets us nowhere.

If this isn't just going to be a pure sales platform (then I'd say goodbye), then the RSG need to be as clear as possible. And if there is a majority decision in the community, then the RSG have to be adjusted in a timely manner. Anything else just leads to frustration.

---------------

FWIW: I keep reading that staff has a lot of work to do and doesn't make it in time. Hmm, most companies hire people in a situation like this. And if one or more people feel attacked now: I would like to apologize for that right away. That was not my intention. Personal attacks also lead nowhere.

bibabu
I see no benefit in worklswide. An empty field was IMO completely ok.

An empty field has a completely different meaning than worldwide.
It means: "information not known"
Worldwide means: This (version of this) release was intended to be available worldwide.

Worldwide is definitely not intended to replace an empty field.

bibabu
Why, if something like this is introduced, aren't the RSG adjusted in a meaningful way right away.

This pain is shared by a lot of s.
I don't think any change that is decided should be included right away in the RSG. Sometimes after a decision is made, problems may arise while implementing it. But just a sticky topic with "Planned guideline updates" which stay there for about a year (or so) as a form of test phase would already mean a lot. That way we don't need to search through the forum and discuss all kind of random staff comments scattered around.

A tighter follow up for decisions made in the forum in the future would be one of the best improvements that could be made at this moment.

Currently we are at a point where different staff comments result in both a C & EI vote being justified for the same edit.
It all depends on which cherry the voter likes to pick...

bibabu
FWIW: I keep reading that staff has a lot of work to do and doesn't make it in time. Hmm, most companies hire people in a situation like this. And if one or more people feel attacked now: I would like to apologize for that right away. That was not my intention. Personal attacks also lead nowhere.

I have the same feeling. Don't want to attack anyone, but there is a problem. Staff interventions are often poor and seldom address arguments brought up in discussions. This is the only place I know where staff or s don't follow all discussions at least diagonally and address all arguments when to (or more) opinions of different s oppose each other. And this is going for at least a few years now. I hope this will better soon.

Dr.SultanAszazin
An empty field has a completely different meaning than worldwide.
It means: "information not known"
Worldwide means: This (version of this) release was intended to be available worldwide.

Worldwide as a country apparently doesn't mean "This (version of this) release was intended to be available worldwide.", it means "this release is marked as being Worldwide."

In practice we're still going to be keeping the field blank in most cases if that's what it is.

AmazingDiscoveries
In practice we're still going to be keeping the field blank in most cases if that's what it is.

Yes, indeed. Most blank fields will stay blank.

Dr.SultanAszazin
massenmediumIn practice we're still going to be keeping the field blank in most cases if that's what it is.

Yes, indeed. Most blank fields will stay blank.

So what makes this Greta Van Fleet - The Battle At Garden's Gate a worldwide release?
And, wouldn't it be helpful to explain the reason for worldwide somewhere (notes?).

bibabu
So what makes this Greta Van Fleet - The Battle At Garden's Gate a worldwide release?
And, wouldn't it be helpful to explain the reason for worldwide somewhere (notes?).

I have no background for that release. F56 should explain this.

It is certainly helpful to put extra information regarding the country field in the release notes, as long as the information is accurate and factual. And of course the more information is put in the submission notes, the better, even if the information is not 100% certain (which should be expressed as such, of course.) (I think using the notes in general is a good thing for every bit of infromation.)

bibabu
So what makes this Greta Van Fleet - The Battle At Garden's Gate a worldwide release?

Give me a reason why it shouldn't be 'Worldwide' and I'll take it away. Thx.

F56
Give me a reason why it shouldn't be 'Worldwide' and I'll take it away. Thx.

I can live with 'worldwide'. Especially since worldwide is not exactly defined.
But, give us a reason why it is worldwide.

F56
Give me a reason why it shouldn't be 'Worldwide' and I'll take it away. Thx.

Diognes_The_Fox
Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such

What does that mean? How do you recognize that?
Should it be on the cover?
Selling via a webshop will probably not be enough.
Is bandcamp enough for a digital release?

F56
Give me a reason why it shouldn't be 'Worldwide' and I'll take it away. Thx.

Not sure, but wouldn't it be helpful to shortly explain why you added Worldwide?

It can as well be a US version, as it is distributed by a US UMG subsidiary.
The release data, nor the subnotes show any trace of a worldwide distribution.

Sure it isn't a US release which is imported elsewhere in the world?
Is it distributed in Europe by UMG, or by one or more import/export wholesale companies, unrelated to UMG?
Everything is available through international trade, both retail & wholesale. But that's different from releasing something worldwide.

Just asking questions, I guess you know what you are doing, but atm, using a new tag, it's helpful to explain yourself as clear as possible I think. For future reference.

bibabu
But, give us a reason why it is worldwide.

I think simply. I don't see a clear Europe, Japan, Nigeria and USA or whatever. So I used 'Worldwide' because it filled a gap. If it's wrong, please let me know or change it. Otherwise, with respect, I'm really not interested in all these endless country debates. It is a cruel topic. So I'm out here. Thx for understanding.

F56
I think simply. I don't see a clear Europe, Japan, Nigeria and USA or whatever. So I used 'Worldwide' because it filled a gap. If it's wrong, please let me know or change it.

OK, thanks for your explanation. Personally I wouldn't know if it is wrong or not in this case.
I can't confirm neither deny it.

It's just: some releases are released only in the US. Wholesale companies import certain US labels elsewhere and make them available elsewhere. In such cases the correct country would be US.
(A worldwide release would be 'pushed' outside the US. When it is 'pulled' in from the US by wholesale and retail businesses that is different.)

I don't think Worldwide is intended to fill in gaps in case we are not sure what it actually should be?

Dr.SultanAszazin
I don't think Worldwide is intended to fill in gaps in case we are not sure what it actually should be?

Probably I didn't express myself correctly (English is not my mother tongue). I meant that with the addition of 'Worldwide' a previous gap in the selection of countries on Discogs was closed.

F56
I think simply. I don't see a clear Europe, Japan, Nigeria and USA or whatever. So I used 'Worldwide' because it filled a gap.

Thank you for this honest answer.

at Diognes_The_Fox: Was it that what was meant by worldwide? So simple?

F56
I'm really not interested in all these endless country debates

+1

And therefore: if there is something new, it should be accompanied by an RSG, and not simply

Diognes_The_Fox
I finally did it.

Again and again it is said that the community should find a consensus. And when that happens, it might become an RSG. And here: 'I finally did it'. Please, dear community, work out what "worldwide" is supposed to mean.

Sorry, but IMO that is: -1

F56
Probably I didn't express myself correctly (English is not my mother tongue). I meant that with the addition of 'Worldwide' a previous gap in the selection of countries on Discogs was closed.

OK, no problem.
As UMG operates worldwide, chance is high it is correct anyway, but I can't tell in this case.

Y'all are making this more complicated than it is tbh.
Some source stating a release was released worldwide (on release itself or some external source)? Use Worldwide.
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.
A distributor that's known to release worldwide? Use Worldwide.
All other cases, probably don't.

EzraZebra
Some source stating a release was released worldwide (on release itself or some external source)? Use Worldwide.
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.
A distributor that's known to release worldwide? Use Worldwide.

+1 I think this is a good practical guide to start with.

One could nuance "a distributor" to "a distributor or distribution network", but less words is probably better in a practical sense.
And of course case by case can be discussed where needed. Labels/companies with a worldwide distribution network also do local releases (for music which has no or very little interest elsewhere.)

"Some source stating a release was released worldwide" -> here we should take care, "a release" might in practice mean more versions of the same release. Such an expression is also used to refer purely to the audio material, outside discogs. But I think some common sense is enough to filter mistakes here. (and today local version are not very common anymore anyway)

EzraZebra
Y'all are making this more complicated than it is tbh.
Some source stating a release was released worldwide (on release itself or some external source)? Use Worldwide.
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.
A distributor that's known to release worldwide? Use Worldwide.
All other cases, probably don't.

Pretty much. I had someone asking if there was any evidence a box set - one edition by a very major act signed to the same record company for the world - was issued in Malawi FFS. If not, the tag shouldn’t be used.

Common sense needs to rule here and we have a forum for any grey cases.

Using the rationale that you are just replacing a gap in country is just wrong.
The addition of this tag should be based on evidence and not just to fill a gap.

EzraZebra
Y'all are making this more complicated than it is tbh.

It's discogs. Of course it is. I just hope someone has bookmarked the thread to be referred to again in 10 years.

steve.fletcher
Using the rationale that you are just replacing a gap in country is just wrong.
The addition of this tag should be based on evidence and not just to fill a gap.

Again, I didn't mean the empty country field on the release, I meant that a gap was closed by adding 'Worlwide' to the country list.

EzraZebra
Y'all are making this more complicated than it is tbh.
Some source stating a release was released worldwide (on release itself or some external source)? Use Worldwide.
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.
A distributor that's known to release worldwide? Use Worldwide.
All other cases, probably don't.

Yes, that's how we could do it, and that's how we could have started the thread. And then there would have been a discussion, pros and cons would have been weighed, there would have been a vote, then a proposal with which text that should go into the RSG, and then there would finally have been a specification in the RSG how / when worldwide is to use.

That is the way we are recommended to start / justify a massedit.
That was the way we have discussed the last (few) runout 'changes' [to avoid useless diskussion, we missing a RSG change here].
That would have been the way I would have expected here, especially as the topic has already been discussed several times in the forum.

All in all, this little change shows one of the bigger problems on dc - IMO staff has lost or stopped with the s.

I don't get it. We already have guidelines for the Country field, without needing specific guidelines for each separate country. How is "Worldwide" different? It's not a newly invented word, it has a meaning. Use it when a release is known to have been released worldwide.
Why would we need discussion, let alone a vote? Use the Country field as it's already used, use Worldwide according to what the word "worldwide" means. There's no issue here.

EzraZebra
I don't get it. We already have guidelines for the Country field, without needing specific guidelines for each separate country. How is "Worldwide" different? It's not a newly invented word, it has a meaning. Use it when a release is known to have been released worldwide.
Why would we need discussion, let alone a vote? Use the Country field as it's already used, use Worldwide according to what the word "worldwide" means.

Yes we have GL for the country field. And we do not need an explanation for every country. But worldwide is no country. And there are also requirements for other 'countries'. 'UK & Europe': Only use if it says so on the release. Such little things in the GL prevent misunderstandings and endless searches and diskussions in the forum.

And, for example, with digital releases, there is a requirement to use the artist's country of origin (I read that somewhere). This is from the time before worldwide existed. Does that now exist? Or is now 'worldwide' the better country (IMO yes, but other ...) Does grandfathering apply here?

EzraZebra
There's no issue here.

I do not think so.

I predict many many threads complaining about this that will go in circles and accomplish nothing.

bibabu
But worldwide is no country.

Neither is Europe, yet we don't need a RSG to explain what it means?

bibabu
And there are also requirements for other 'countries'. 'UK & Europe': Only use if it says so on the release.

And there are no "requirements" for Worldwide as of yet. Use it for worldwide releases, that's it.
"UK & Europe" is a special case because we also have "Europe", so it's helpful to know when to use which. It's also a very simple and straightforward requirement.

bibabu
Such little things in the GL prevent misunderstandings and endless searches and diskussions in the forum.

The only discussion I'm seeing here is some people being obtuse about the meaning of the word "worldwide".
It's really quite simple, there is no need for clarification or guidelines. If we know something was released worldwide, then use that as the "country". Nothing more to it.

bibabu
And, for example, with digital releases, there is a requirement to use the artist's country of origin (I read that somewhere).

First I'm hearing about it, seems like a weird thing to do. Web releases are obvious cases where Worldwide is almost always correct (unless there's regional restrictions. Like someone said iTunes does?).

EzraZebra
The only discussion I'm seeing here is some people being obtuse about the meaning of the word "worldwide".

Thank you. Does that help in any way?

EzraZebra
First I'm hearing about it, seems like a weird thing to do.

Searched for it obtusely and actually found it
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/750453#7449162
But in the end there was no 7.1.4. So it's not surprising to hear about it only now. It's more the question of how I can it.

wearyofwokewussies
I predict many many threads complaining about this that will go in circles and accomplish nothing.

I fear that too, and will therefore try not to say anything more about it for the time being.

bibabu
Thank you. Does that help in any way?

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

I feel like I’m somewhat experienced here on Discogs at this point. But I have to it that even I can't quite entirely understand the country field.

Sometimes it's obvious because there is historical precedence, and/or multiple versions of the same release with legal text that makes it obvious.

But otherwise... how the heck do you really know unless the record label explicitly says so (which is rare, and requires external research beyond the physical printed album)?

So yeah, confusion definitely exists around country fields so it's not a surprise that "worldwide" would also prove to be confusing too.

baldorr
I feel like I’m somewhat experienced here on Discogs at this point. But I have to it that even I can't quite entirely understand the country field.

Sometimes it's obvious because there is historical precedence, and/or multiple versions of the same release with legal text that makes it obvious.

But otherwise... how the heck do you really know unless the record label explicitly says so (which is rare, and requires external research beyond the physical printed album)?

So yeah, confusion definitely exists around country fields so it's not a surprise that "worldwide" would also prove to be confusing too.

It is not required data and can be left blank

baldorr
But otherwise... how the heck do you really know unless the record label explicitly says so (which is rare, and requires external research beyond the physical printed album)?

So yeah, confusion definitely exists around country fields so it's not a surprise that "worldwide" would also prove to be confusing too.

Absolutely agree with this.
Another concern is that "Worldwide" will potentially lead to people not submitting a version that is from a more specific country or region, thinking it's already covered. It would have been better to just stick with leaving the country blank.

Discogs should really change the Country field because its current definition requires people to know things that they can't know for sure (the intended market). Country is very much an identifying factor so why leave that up to people's assumptions ?

Dr.SultanAszazin
Checking who pressed them, it seemed they were pressed by GZ in the Czech Republic.
I had the idea there were sufficient pressing good pressing plants in the US, but seems I was wrong.

This is off topic, but GZ now actually runs their own pressing plants in the US: http://gzvinyl.com/s.aspx#map-usa-Anchor

jweijde
Discogs should really change the Country field

A shameless plug just for the record:
Forum Thread #399854

EzraZebra
And there are no "requirements" for Worldwide as of yet.

We have a polite request -

Diognes_The_Fox
Please only use where it's clear if it's marked as such

EzraZebra
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.

I'd go for that but currently this is not codified.

AmazingDiscoveries
Please only use where it's clear

That's a fairly easy thing to qualify in a great many cases. For example, the recent Bowie vinyl box sets exist only in one edition each. It's Bowie, Warners have global rights, he's a global superstar and his record company has a global reach (even if a handful of countries are beyond their current regional divisions because of politics). IMO Worldwide is a no brainer. Not so for the CD versions because there are Japanese editions.

EzraZebra
A web release without significant regional restrictions? Use Worldwide.

This is not thought through. Should we list every release that a band or solo artist offers on his website -maybe even without label and distributor- as "Worldwide" just because he didn't specify any country restrictions? This can't be... this is nonsense.

F56
This is not thought through. Should we list every release that a band or solo artist offers on his website -maybe even without label and distributor- as "Worldwide" just because he didn't specify any country restrictions? This can't be... this is nonsense.

Why not? Country is for where it was released. s are accessible worldwide unless region-blocked, so they are worldwide releases.

EzraZebra
Why not? Country is for where it was released. s are accessible worldwide unless region-blocked, so they are worldwide releases.

Yes, but also keep in mind that AFAIK Discogs documents the 'intended country of release'.
I'm quite confident that something released in for example Albanian language is intended for release in Albania only.
Or a Danish star artist that is virtualy unknown outside Denmark is probably intended for release in Denmark only (or Scandinavia at best)
etc.

JeroenG8
keep in mind that AFAIK Discogs documents the 'intended country of release'.

But what for? Is the purpose to document "intent" or is more in order to distinguish from export situations? My assumption has been that it was the latter.

I'm sure most artists releasing music primarily for a regional audience but de facto available worldwide aren't going to mind where listeners are!

EzraZebra
Country is for where it was released.

JeroenG8
Discogs documents the 'intended country of release'.

AmazingDiscoveries
Is the purpose to document "intent"

Discogs defines the country as "country of origin (the market) of the release". This means that a digital release by a Danish artist can still have Denmark as country. The country of origin is definitely Denmark and, considering the profile of the artist, the primary market most likely is too. Those are two things we can be sure of. It being a doesn't change that. Whether or not it being a means it was 'intended' to be a worldwide release is anybody's guess really.
Compare it to physical releases. If I go to a large Scandinavian online retailer that ships to my country and buy a CD from a Swedish artist, does that make the release a European release ? Or a "Sweden & Holland" release ? Surely not.

For digital releases from major platforms, "Worldwide" is questionable aswell. Take for example iTunes:
https://.apple.com/en-us/HT204411
The iTunes music store is not offered in every country in the world. In some countries you only have access to Apple Music for streaming and a few countries aren't mentioned in that list. Unless you set criteria for when the country becomes "Worldwide", iTunes releases are not "Worldwide" by default.

jweijde
Discogs defines the country as "country of origin (the market) of the release". This means that a digital release by a Danish artist can still have Denmark as country. The country of origin is definitely Denmark and, considering the profile of the artist, the primary market most likely is too. Those are two things we can be sure of. It being a doesn't change that. Whether or not it being a means it was 'intended' to be a worldwide release is anybody's guess really.
Compare it to physical releases. If I go to a large Scandinavian online retailer that ships to my country and buy a CD from a Swedish artist, does that make the release a European release ? Or a "Sweden & Holland" release ? Surely not.

But it says "country of origin (the market)", i.e. by "country of origin" they mean the region where it was distributed, not where it was recorded, not where the artist is from, not where it was manufactured.
When I a release from Bandcamp by a Canadian artist, I'm not buying it from a retailer or some other third party to export it outside the "the market" it was originally released in, I'm obtaining it directly from the "distributor" that distributes it worldwide.
The analogy works better if you use a VPN to a release that's not available in your country.

jweijde
For digital releases from major platforms, "Worldwide" is questionable aswell. Take for example iTunes:
https://.apple.com/en-us/HT204411
The iTunes music store is not offered in every country in the world. In some countries you only have access to Apple Music for streaming and a few countries aren't mentioned in that list. Unless you set criteria for when the country becomes "Worldwide", iTunes releases are not "Worldwide" by default.

Well, so we know iTunes releases aren't worldwide, so we don't use Worldwide for them. SoundCloud doesn't have such restrictions so releases on SoundCloud are unambiguously worldwide.

I guess that raises the question whether we should split releases between sites with regional restrictions and sites without them?
To which I'd say definitely not. Just like with any other country/region, when in doubt, leave it blank.

jweijde
Whether or not it being a means it was 'intended' to be a worldwide release is anybody's guess really.

Or you can say that if a is available worldwide then it's very unlikely the intent was to restrict availability, even if the artist primarily had a particular regional market in mind.

jweijde
For digital releases from major platforms, "Worldwide" is questionable aswell.

Yeah, and that's why we're only talknig about applying it to s that are available worldwide and not ones that are restricted.

jweijde
Discogs defines the country as "country of origin (the market) of the release".

In of s we can translate this as something more useful i.e. availability.

moonhazle
For lunarr.
Had a nightmare tonight:
It started with a lot of confusing blah blah things, in the middle a lot of rock science
by scientists at Houston: ''a cosmic smoking gun for years: space junk in orbit
will potentially have it's effect on our planet!'' and ended with a small(?!) news item:
Stones records and CDs falling out of the sky, filmed by CNN drones with music
that was on the actual discs captured in flight, one rarer than the other... all in colour
realy cool, no mention of crater #7, stupid I thought, but I was happy not waking the asleep
with that info. Dream on, dream on I said to myself, but not one descended here in Europe,
none for me or to give back, and I woke up, had some water walked over to my own Stones
collection, had a good laugh and switched on my PC to this forum with a coffee.
Then I found this post.
Not really on topic here, but a nice place to share & combine this:
Boots have always been worldwide...
and maybe one day Stones will hit worldwide, from out of space...
It wasn't a dream, it was a nightmare...
Take your time lunarr, play your Stones and I wish you good health, mate!

Thank you for a welcome commercial break. Appreciate the good wishes. Now back to the ridiculousness.

jweijde
This means that a digital release by a Danish artist can still have Denmark as country.

EzraZebra
i.e. by "country of origin" they mean the region where it was distributed, , not where it was recorded, not where the artist is from, not where it was manufactured.

This doesn't make "Denmark" invalid as country though. For sure, the release was distributed in that country.

AmazingDiscoveries
Yeah, and that's why we're only talknig about applying it to s that are available worldwide and not ones that are restricted.

How does one really know or even determine if a release is not restricted, in other words: available in all countries ?

AmazingDiscoveries
In of s we can translate this as something more useful i.e. availability.

Might be more useful but surely doesn't make things easier. When ing a release, how does one determine the countries in which it was (meant to be) available ? They can't, and most likely won't. They just ed the release so they why should they bother where else it was available ?

EzraZebra
But it says "country of origin (the market)", i.e. by "country of origin" they mean the region where it was distributed, not where it was recorded, not where the artist is from, not where it was manufactured.

Exactly. the guidelines are unclear to the point of being contradctory nonsense but we have very established consensus that it means distribution / availability.

jweijde
How does one really know or even determine if a release is not restricted, in other words: available in all countries ?

jweijde
how does one determine the countries in which it was (meant to be) available ?

Where the distribution platform doesn't have regional restrictions.

It's not hard to do that. The question is whether you want to go with effective availability or some nebulous idea about "intent", or change the rules entirely and go with where the label or artist is based.

AmazingDiscoveries
The question is whether you want to go with effective availability or some nebulous idea about "intent"

"Effective availability" requires knowledge about the "intent" to some extent as well. With physical releases even more. Otherwise you could change the country of any vinyl sold online to "Worldwide".