Duplicate customs tax paid by customer

Does anyone know if a customer pays the vat/gst tax on an item again by mistake when it's already being imposed and collected by Discogs, how can they get a refund?

They claim against whoever charged them for the second time. That is their customs area presuming all the correct paperwork was attached to the parcel.

Its possible the invoice was not inside the parcel . Even if not included in the parcel, it can be shown from his orders upon logging in as the receipt is available online.
I told him to the customs and show the receipt that it has been paid already but he said hes been told no refund.
It seems very unfair.

Is the buyer in the EU?

Yes in

andywilson

Not again. Did you electronically submit Discogs' IOSS VAT ID at the time you paid to ship? This will likely be a cause for double taxation...

https://blog.discogs.sie.com/en/discogs-ioss-number-is-now-available

andywilson
Its possible the invoice was not inside the parcel

andywilson
I told him to the customs and show the receipt that it has been paid already but he said hes been told no refund

That won't suffice for customs. Discogs' commercial invoice must be attached to a parcel along with a CN22, etc.

I infer it wasn't and without the IOSS number being electronically submitted - no refund from customs.

A CN22 was included. I'm based in NZ and the IOSS number is not electronically submitted even if done online, hence everything is reliant on the invoice which contains the IOSS number and shows tax has already been paid. . .
In the event the invoice is not included in the shipment, logistically all that needs to happen is the receiving customer bring a copy of it upon collection of the parcel from customs. Unfortunately this did not happen and the customer was stung the VAT again.
These occurrences will happen from time to time, but should be able to be corrected by the customs issuing a refund upon the showing of the invoice that states the tax has already been collected.

andywilson
These occurrences will happen from time to time, but should be able to be corrected by the customs issuing a refund upon the showing of the invoice that states the tax has already been collected.

To achieve that aim , the relevant VAT information needs to be electronically integrated within the information available on the package prior to inspection and processing by that country's customs offices.

If it is not , no matter what other documentation is attached to any package , a second tranche of VAT will normally be demanded on delivery.

andywilson
In the event the invoice is not included in the shipment, logistically all that needs to happen is the receiving customer bring a copy of it upon collection of the parcel from customs.

andywilson
These occurrences will happen from time to time, but should be able to be corrected by the customs issuing a refund upon the showing of the invoice that states the tax has already been collected.

The process simply doesn't work that way as described by the link I sent you...

Import One-Stop-Shop, is an electronic system designed to allow goods imported into the EU from outside the EU to through customs more efficiently. The IOSS number included on Discogs’ commercial receipt declares to customs officials that supply of goods VAT has been charged at an appropriate rate on the order and paid by the buyer.

As a reminder to sellers, the commercial receipt should be attached to the outside of each package for all orders shipped outside of your home country. Attaching a commercial receipt will help speed customs clearance of goods shipped internationally which means your buyers will receive their orders faster.

ObSaint
andywilsonThese occurrences will happen from time to time, but should be able to be corrected by the customs issuing a refund upon the showing of the invoice that states the tax has already been collected.

To achieve that aim , the relevant VAT information needs to be electronically integrated within the information available on the package prior to inspection and processing by that country's customs offices.

If it is not , no matter what other documentation is attached to any package , a second tranche of VAT will normally be demanded on delivery.

I hear what you say. However their has to be a way of issuing a refund for these types of occurrences to correct the omission afterward or at the point of customs payment by showing the invoice .

andywilson
I hear what you say. However their has to be a way of issuing a refund for these types of occurrences to correct the omission afterward or at the point of customs payment by showing the invoice .

Returning to your very first post , you will be finding out the answer very shortly ... especially if your buyer escalates their problem.

andywilson
their has to be a way of issuing a refund for these types of occurrences to correct the omission afterward or at the point of customs payment by showing the invoice .

The seller is the one liable for issuing refunds for any mistakes related to customs declarations...

Sellers are responsible for including correct shipping information on all packages, including clear and correct address and customs declarations (where required). Sellers are responsible for fines or penalties related to incorrect customs declarations.

https://.discogs.sie.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001431953-Sales-Transaction-Policy

No mistake was made. No incorrect customs declaration.

andywilson
No mistake was made.

If no mistake was made then why was the buyer doubled taxed?

By your own ission...

andywilson
Its possible the invoice was not inside the parcel

The invoice must be attached to the parcel with no exceptions.

Was the IOSS number electronically submitted?

Out of curiosity , how was the Discogs VAT information electronically integrated ?

NZ Post eShip scheme perhaps ?

https://www.nzpost.co.nz/business/ecommerce/digital-solutions/eship

I don't use that platform eShip.
Different countries around the world will be using different processes but my understanding is they are all about globalisation in what's known as EAD, 'electronic advance data' which is all relatively new depending on what country you're residing in . Essentially before shipping something, the receiving country is already informed of it through EAD. Here the main requirement is a customs declaration CN22, but having just recently switched to online processing for most of my shipping that form is now integrated saving much time instead of having to manually fill out the form.
I normally secure an invoice to the back of any parcel I send out - in the past sometimes placed inside if no room but in this instance its possible it may have dislodged. I haven't had any other customer inform me of this happening .

I still maintain a customer can have any wrongly imposed second VAT cleared by showing the online invoice, preferably at the point of customs notification rather than paying it, then afterward applying for a refund which would likely face additional istration difficulty.
These things will happen from time to time and some form of correction should be available.

ObSaint
NZ Post eShip scheme perhaps ?

https://www.nzpost.co.nz/business/ecommerce/digital-solutions/eship

Interesting to note that , like the UK with Royal Mail , Discogs is NOT on their list of electronically integrated marketplaces.

andywilson
I still maintain a customer can have any wrongly imposed second VAT cleared by showing the online invoice, preferably at the point of customs notification rather than paying it, then afterward applying for a refund which would likely face additional istration difficulty.
These things will happen from time to time and some form of correction should be available.

It's entirely up to you to believe that. In an ideal world we'd like all things to go our way.

The fact of the matter is since July 1st non-VAT ed sellers shipping from countries outside the EU to an EU country are required to electronically submit an OMP's IOSS number (embedded on a shipping label) with any additional paperwork. Otherwise, you as the seller risk incurring an inevitable and unnecessary VAT charge to the buyer at their border.

With over 200 countries in the world the fact of the matter is it often depends on the country as not all are up to speed or utilizing exactly the same methodology when doing their shipments .
It's not possible to submit electronically the IOSS number here, since shipping info does not list or require it, so we can only ensure it is noted to customs of the receivers country via the paper invoice which is attached to the parcel.
For my Australian customers I still quote the Discogs ABN number on the customs info form to indicate gst has already been imposed . I worry to that invoice attachments may come loose during transit which seems likely in this scenario .
Possibly quoting the IOSS number in this way may be a good additional measure to add when shipping to the EU, along with the attached invoice.

andywilson
It's not possible to submit electronically the IOSS number here, since shipping info does not list or require it, so we can only ensure it is noted to customs of the receivers country via the paper invoice which is attached to the parcel.

May I ask why you're importing to the EU then? The buyer will be charged unrefundable import VAT while you're collecting supply VAT.

andywilson
Possibly quoting the IOSS number in this way may be a good additional measure to add when shipping to the EU, along with the attached invoice.

Nope, it won't suffice for the reasons already given on this thread.

Any imports getting through customs without all the required declarations would be pure luck (if you believe in luck).

Never had any other issues and no buyers won't be charged again, as long as the parcel has the accompanying discogs invoice which already states the IOSS number and whatever taxes have been imposed, their is no issue.
As said earlier if an invoice is inadvertently missing from a parcel then the customer is able to utilise the online one to prove VAT has already been paid to customs, thereby removing any possible mistake of a 2nd VAT being added. That is natural vigilance to be expected from a buyer . Like 'Hey customs why are you trying to charge VAT when I've already paid it? '. Same vigilance one applies to being asked to pay any bill twice.

It's not so much about luck, just common sense.

I might be missing something here - sold a 7" single to Sweden and mailed from the UK using the click and drop method. Input the Discogs / Zinc Media IOSS electronically and Royal Mail generated a label with a barcode and QR Code. es label that attached to one side and CN22 to the reverse - how and where are you meant to affix an A4 receipt?

Swedish customs are trying to take further VAT.

As an aside, this problem only happened on Discogs - I've sent out dozens of items via eBay the exact same way with no problems.

graemewalker1966
As an aside, this problem only happened on Discogs - I've sent out dozens of items via eBay the exact same way with no problems.

Ebay are an " Approved " online marketplace for Royal Mail purposes ... Discogs is not.

Whether that fact has any bearing , only by monitoring posts such as this one will we know.

andywilson
It's not possible to submit electronically the IOSS number here, since shipping info does not list or require it, so we can only ensure it is noted to customs of the receivers country via the paper invoice which is attached to the parcel.

You can read numerous experiences here from people where customs have not taken this attitude. As far as they're concerned it's not their problem. They don't even care if the problem is at their end, they'll just bill the recipient.

The invoice barely seems to matter (unless the package is opened), the only real chance you have is electronic IOSS registration and as you can see even that's not a guarantee.

andywilson
As said earlier if an invoice is inadvertently missing from a parcel then the customer is able to utilise the online one to prove VAT has already been paid to customs, thereby removing any possible mistake of a 2nd VAT being added. That is natural vigilance to be expected from a buyer . Like 'Hey customs why are you trying to charge VAT when I've already paid it? '. Same vigilance one applies to being asked to pay any bill twice.

It's not so much about luck, just common sense.

They can try. Again, it's entirely at the discretion of the customs office.

graemewalker1966
es label that attached to one side and CN22 to the reverse - how and where are you meant to affix an A4 receipt?

Can't you get the label and CN22 on one side and the receipt on the back?

AmazingDiscoveries
andywilsonIt's not possible to submit electronically the IOSS number here, since shipping info does not list or require it, so we can only ensure it is noted to customs of the receivers country via the paper invoice which is attached to the parcel.
You can read numerous experiences here from people where customs have not taken this attitude. As far as they're concerned it's not their problem. They don;t even care if the problem is at their end, they'll just bill the recipient.

The invoice barely seems to matter (unless the package is opened), the only real chance you have is electronic IOSS registration and as you can see even that's not a guarantee.

graemewalker1966es label that attached to one side and CN22 to the reverse - how and where are you meant to affix an A4 receipt?
Can't you get the label and CN22 on one side and the receipt on the back?

Not on a 7" single - even printing at a reduced size they have to go front and back. What if it's a CD or a cassette? You can only reduce the printing by around 20% before the barcode become a solid block.

graemewalker1966
What if it's a CD

i've sent CDs in C0 envelopes with these labels.

They're about 9x12.6cm each - the envelope gives you about 23x17cm so they both fit on one side no problem. Actually that might be 95% size but I think even at 100% it would be fine.

Cassettes would be harder, I'd probably have to use some oversized packaging.

andywilson
Never had any other issues and no buyers won't be charged again, as long as the parcel has the accompanying discogs invoice which already states the IOSS number and whatever taxes have been imposed, their is no issue.

Right. So why do you think the buyer was charged import VAT i.e. "charged again" if everything is hunky-dory? If you really know what's happening at the border why did you believe the buyer got charged VAT by "mistake"?

andywilson
Does anyone know if a customer pays the vat/gst tax on an item again by mistake when it's already being imposed and collected by Discogs, how can they get a refund?

Well, you can't confirm the invoice is with the parcel and the IOSS number wasn't ed with your shipping label. Telltale signs why that double charge was incurred to the buyer. The buyer didn't make a mistake that's for sure.

If I was the buyer I know I wouldn't bother chasing customs to claim VAT back. I'd pay the import VAT to get my goods out of customs ASAP. It'd be much easier and quicker to recoup VAT back from the seller afterwards.

The main reason why the EU introduced IOSS is to end the charging of import VAT by customs. You have been informed that electronically submitting the IOSS number is a customs requirement. It's unfortunate you can't in your country.

I'd suspend sales to the EU if I wasn't able to the IOSS number electronically for shipments. I wouldn't want the hassle and unwanted of dealing with double-charge complaints, as well as issuing partial refunds.

andywilson
It's not so much about luck, just common sense.

Processing parcels through customs without buyers being double charged when a seller hasn't done their homework I imagine would be considered by many as luck.

Common sense should tell you not to fool yourself into thinking customs have time to check every single parcel attached with a commercial invoice. It just serves to supplement the shipping label for faster processing.

I recently shipped an IOSS ed order UK to the Netherlands with all the trimmings that went through customs as fast as lightning and received door-to-door in 2 business days. No double charge, no problem.

I've also just gleaned from tracking scans for an order I shipped to on Friday that the "Item has left the overseas International Processing Centre" following customs clearance earlier this evening.

Again, might be premature but it seems there's no double VAT charge, no problemo.

RAWFLAVA
andywilsonNever had any other issues and no buyers won't be charged again, as long as the parcel has the accompanying discogs invoice which already states the IOSS number and whatever taxes have been imposed, their is no issue.
Right. So why do you think the buyer was charged import VAT i.e. "charged again" if everything is hunky-dory? If you really know what's happening at the border why did you believe the buyer got charged VAT by "mistake"?

andywilsonDoes anyone know if a customer pays the vat/gst tax on an item again by mistake when it's already being imposed and collected by Discogs, how can they get a refund?
Well, you can't confirm the invoice is with the parcel and the IOSS number wasn't ed with your shipping label. Telltale signs why that double charge was incurred to the buyer. The buyer didn't make a mistake that's for sure.

If I was the buyer I know I wouldn't bother chasing customs to claim VAT back. I'd pay the import VAT to get my goods out of customs ASAP. It'd be much easier and quicker to recoup VAT back from the seller afterwards.

The main reason why the EU introduced IOSS is to end the charging of import VAT by customs. You have been informed that electronically submitting the IOSS number is a customs requirement. It's unfortunate you can't in your country.

I'd suspend sales to the EU if I wasn't able to the IOSS number electronically for shipments. I wouldn't want the hassle and unwanted of dealing with double-charge complaints, as well as issuing partial refunds.

andywilsonIt's not so much about luck, just common sense.
Processing parcels through customs without buyers being double charged when a seller hasn't done their homework I imagine would be considered by many as luck.

Common sense should tell you not to fool yourself into thinking customs have time to check every single parcel attached with a commercial invoice. It just serves to supplement the shipping label for faster processing.

I recently shipped an IOSS ed order UK to the Netherlands with all the trimmings that went through customs as fast as lightning and received door-to-door in 2 business days. No double charge, no problem.

The IOSS number is only a part of the picture, the shippers invoice contains the whole information. Customs implementing any kind of tax at the receiving end is a manual process involving a calculation which relys on looking over the invoice attached to the shipment. If the invoice states tax has already been implemented then logically they will not add it on again.
Again if for some reason the invoice is not attached to the shipment, by possible dislodgment or other reason then customer can show their online invoice to clear up the anomaly so the parcel can be forwarded on without any error tax being applied.
If customer simply pays the error tax without raising questions and then expects seller to reimburse him, we are simply transferring one injustice onto another - the seller - which is not solving the issue.

It pays to have faith in the customs staff to correct errors which will obviously arise from time to time over millions of shipments. I've experienced similar mishaps when receiving goods and not had an issue correcting them. Again the key thing is correct them before paying any error tax as afterwards it will be that much harder to address refunds .

andywilson
The IOSS number is the quintessential part of the picture

FTFY.

Did you not read anything you've been factually informed about and asked? There's some headbanging going on here.

The IOSS number embedded on a shipping label proves supply VAT is paid so there'd be no need for buyers to pay import VAT. The invoice is a supplement. Still with me?

IOSS negates the need for import VAT since July 1st. There are teething problems for some EU countries but that's what IOSS has been implemented for.

When buyers are charged import VAT that's because customs haven't received electronically submitted proof of IOSS registration.

Chill my friend.
As said prior, not all countries shipping records enable the listing of the IOSS number electronically, hence a manual glance at the attached shipping invoice on the parcel is all that is required to understand any imposition requirement or not of the customs excise duty at the receiving end by customs . Therefore in these situations a shipping invoice is much more than your description of it being only a 'supplement' .
Your earlier remark and totalitarian stance that if the IOSS is not able to be inputted electronically at the senders end, therefore one should not be exporting to the EU is controlist.
Again that is why the shipping invoice attachment is important, it provides much greater information and allows manual intervention by customs should that be required.
At some point the IOSS number may be able to be entered electronically as part of shipping detail for all countries but for now it isn't and I didn't make the rules, neither am I wanting to.

andywilson
Your earlier remark and totalitarian stance that if the IOSS is not able to be inputted electronically at the senders end, therefore one should not be exporting to the EU is controlist.

That is the reality though. It doesn't matter how many documents you attach to the parcel. The postal service where I live (Sweden) has made it clear that they will add fees and VAT to a parcel unless information comes up when they scan the barcode containing the tracking number.

andywilson
a shipping invoice is much more than your description of it being only a 'supplement' .
Your earlier remark and totalitarian stance that if the IOSS is not able to be inputted electronically at the senders end, therefore one should not be exporting to the EU is controlist.

You've been repeatedly provided with the answer to your initial question. As you can surely see by now it's a fact IOSS electronic submission is mandatory, not my stance, as others have also informed you. It's unfortunate you can't accept the facts, particularly when it's obvious why your buyer got double charged VAT. That's an imposition YOU put on each EU buyer you sell to and the resulting complications self-imposed should you continue to ship without correctly providing IOSS registration.

With respect, if you really think customs officials have the time or the desire to check all parcels, especially in covid times where staff are probably stretched, you're frankly delusional.

I can't speak for other non-EU countries but when I prepare my IOSS shipping label I have to enter Discogs' IOSS number and an order number. Now, I'm guessing when my parcels arrive at customs they scan the embedded label, which electronically pulls up all required details at a glance so they can expedite as many parcels as fast as possible. The invoice may need to be checked randomly.

Checking paperwork is more laborious with the amount of items handled and takes more time. Customs will simply bill the buyer with import VAT if they can't properly determine supply VAT was paid.

And why should they refund the buyer when they can't determine VAT was paid without a fundamental embedded shipping label that should've been provided by an exporter? You was informed earlier it'd totally be at their discretion. I'd chase the seller as a buyer for a rebate anyway.

IOSS wasn't set up for customs to check paperwork to prove paid supply VAT. Not trying to browbeat but an invoice only won't be sufficient.

I hope NZ get their postal / courier systems going soon to handle IOSS shipping.

Agreed the barcode is on the shipping label and for shippers from certain countries the electronic shipping data doesn't include the IOSS number . If customs do add tax on by mistake then customer needs to show their online invoice , indicating tax already paid, it is then removed. Importantly it must be queried up front, not paid then trying to get a refund . Customs check shipping docs to calculate the taxes, when no electronic IOSS number is received, so they do see if taxes are already paid on the shippers invoice. They are not going to add error taxes on unnecessarily when they observe the tax has been paid already from the invoice . Never had any issues bar one out of hundreds of parcels sent to the EU including Sweden.
If it was the case in Sweden as you say, for customs to add error tax because the IOSS number was only manually able to be obtained from the parcel invoice , they would be getting thousands of complaints. Perhaps they have differing handling applications dependent on country where electronic IOSS is not an option.

One must always check any kind of bill whether it be electric, rates, water etc. If you have proof you've paid already, its never any issue to have it cancelled, customs charges are no different. The difficulty encountered would be in not querying it and simply paying the error tax then afterward applying to get a refund .
My original post is centred around the issue, how to get a refund when these things occur - my post is not about changing other countries shipping systems which I cannot do anything about - though ittedly I agree if the IOSS number was able to be submitted electronically at the shipping point it would be ideal . Perhaps that will come , in the meantime the paper based shipping invoice which bears the IOSS number has to suffice.
Again never had an issue till this one off, which most probably occured due to invoice becoming detached and then exasperated by customer paying customs without querying it, and not showing the online invoice proof of tax payment.

Advocating a ban on all countries shipping to the EU because their shipping systems may be a little different in not inputting electronically the IOSS number is not helping and certainly would shrink the marketplace, which is perhaps why some sellers might suggest that to rid themselves of other competitors . Just sayin 😏

RAWFLAVA

I can't speak for other non EU countries

Most sensible thing you've said this entire thread . The marketplace isn't going to shrink simply because you want countries to be kicked out and comply to your controlist narrative.

andywilson
The marketplace isn't going to shrink simply because you want countries to be kicked out and comply to your controlist narrative.

What asinine remarks! Keep the faith though 🙏🙄🤭

If this is a "narrative" it's not only me trying to "control" you XD

You've been told by others about what you need to do to...

Bong
doesn't matter how many documents you attach to the parcel. The postal service where I live (Sweden) has made it clear that they will add fees and VAT to a parcel unless information comes up when they scan the barcode containing the tracking number.

So I have just shipped a parcel to (from Australia). The postal staff here were clueless about how to handle this IOSS issue, both in store and on the helpline. What I have done is complete an electronic customs declaration form CM23 and entered the discogs IOSS number in the field "Importer Reference Number". This was then printed out on a post label (with a barcode) and attached to the parcel. I attached the discogs invoice to the back of the parcel in full page format but it seems from what everyone is saying here, unless the parcel is scanned in at the receiving end with the relevant IOSS data popping up, it goes into the unpaid VAT pile.

I hope what I have done is sufficient.

redstingray1977
it seems from what everyone is saying here, unless the parcel is scanned in at the receiving end with the relevant IOSS data popping up, it goes into the unpaid VAT pile.

I sent a parcel to on Friday which has already cleared customs and is out for delivery today. It's a win-win when everything is done correctly! There's next to no chance of additional import charges levied to buyers, thus resulting in further delays receiving their goods.

But that's not what the OP seems interested in. It's more about keeping EU business coming in and inconvenience for EU buyers.

redstingray1977
what I have done is sufficient.

I doubt you could do anything more other than hand delivering yourself!

Just to update with regards to posting to Sweden - this is the reply I received from the buyer who has been hit twice for VAT.

Quote: "I have talked to Swedish Customs now and they do not accept IOSS numbers that are embedded in QR- or barcodes. They only accept IOSS numbers that are machine printed. So, as a seller you wouldn’t even be able to write it onto the label your printed from Royal Mail by hand. It would still be refused.

I am very sorry for all the trouble this is causing you, but as I buy a lot of records on Discogs I am racking up a LOT of costs for double VAT plus the penalty fee of £6 for each additional purchase. I will not try to appeal the decision by Swedish customs. Unfortunately sending as a gift doesn’t work as Swedish Customs return all parcels without a stated value. So if they refuse my appeal, I will just go ahead and pay the extra £9 or whatever it is again in order to get the record."

andywilson
The marketplace isn't going to shrink simply because you want countries to be kicked out and comply to your controlist narrative.

When the new VAT regime from orders outside the EU came into effect, I immediately pulled the brake on all such purchases simply because (unless some people have started dealing with selling online now) postal systems most of the times are not ready to automatically switch to new rules and guidelines - this has always been the case. And it was 101% certain, as Discogs was not ready for this new situation, that problems will occur. Soon enough it was proven that the old way of doing things doesn't work and without an IOSS number, at first, or without an electronically submitted IOSS, all parcels will get hit with another round of VAT plus whatever fee the local customs authority will charge.

So, until I am sure the situation has improved I have no intention of making any purchases from outside the EU. Not to mention the abolition of Low Value Consignment Relief which makes it all the more pricey to buy one or two CDs from a seller in the UK. Or the exorbitant postage costs I have to pay when ordering sth from the US. The marketplace will not shrink because a member says so or because this member is looking to eliminate the competition; all those extra costs makes everybody think twice before purchasing music. Sad but true.

graemewalker1966
Just to update with regards to posting to Sweden - this is the reply I received from the buyer who has been hit twice for VAT.

Quote: "I have talked to Swedish Customs now and they do not accept IOSS numbers that are embedded in QR- or barcodes. They only accept IOSS numbers that are machine printed. So, as a seller you wouldn’t even be able to write it onto the label your printed from Royal Mail by hand. It would still be refused.

This seems odd and contrary to how IOSS has been implemented.

It also is at odds with the Swedish Postal Services own guidelines (See below):

https://www.postnord.se/en/receiving/collect/from-another-country

"Import One Stop Shop (IOSS)
The EU's new VAT rules from 1 July 2021 mean, among other things, that e-retailers outside the EU can for IOSS, which means that VAT can be levied directly at the time of purchase. The advantage for you as a consumer is that you can get your shipment faster and without having to pay VAT and a handling fee when the shipment arrives in the EU. For this to work, the e-retailer needs to be ed and send the necessary information electronically, which makes simplified customs clearance possible. These conditions need to be met for the Swedish Customs to approve the customs clearance."

And further to that -

PostNord will have no information as to why any customs declaration is rejected. If you have reason to believe that VAT is prepaid, you are advised to the sender for more information.

chichan
It also is at odds

I suppose it's possible they have an OCR system for machine printed numbers but not a barcode / QR reader. Possible but would be very odd.

jilemnicky_02
andywilsonThe marketplace isn't going to shrink simply because you want countries to be kicked out and comply to your controlist narrative.

When the new VAT regime from orders outside the EU came into effect, I immediately pulled the brake on all such purchases simply because (unless some people have started dealing with selling online now) postal systems most of the times are not ready to automatically switch to new rules and guidelines - this has always been the case. And it was 101% certain, as Discogs was not ready for this new situation, that problems will occur. Soon enough it was proven that the old way of doing things doesn't work and without an IOSS number, at first, or without an electronically submitted IOSS, all parcels will get hit with another round of VAT plus whatever fee the local customs authority will charge.

So, until I am sure the situation has improved I have no intention of making any purchases from outside the EU. Not to mention the abolition of Low Value Consignment Relief which makes it all the more pricey to buy one or two CDs from a seller in the UK. Or the exorbitant postage costs I have to pay when ordering sth from the US. The marketplace will not shrink because a member says so or because this member is looking to eliminate the competition; all those extra costs makes everybody think twice before purchasing music. Sad but true.

Never had any issue out of hundreds of parcels sent . Again this one instance where error tax was applied would have come about for 2 reasons , firstly a dislodged shipping invoice from the parcel and secondly customer paying the error tax without querying and not showing his online invoice which includes the IOSS number and tax paid. He didn't do this and so customs did not remove the error tax.
We need to give the customs credit where due , they are not robots. Lastly it is apparent from this thread that customs process parcels differently dependent on the senders country, that is where filing electronic IOSS on a shipment is NOT an option in the senders country then a manual look over the attached paperwork by customs at the receiving end is required to the tax status of the shipment. I would suspect most non EU countries other than the UK would be unable to electronically input the IOSS number and that the manual system of customs checking over attached paperwork would be the most usual..
But the intention of my thread was helping a customer get the error tax refunded after its already been paid. Each country may have different ways in dealing with that , it may be a lengthy process.Transferring the injustice over to the seller to refund the error tax back to the customer as one submitter stated is not a solution to this problem .

andywilson
Never had any issue out of hundreds of parcels sent

The new system has been in place since the 1st of July. Have you sent hundreds of parcels to and Sweden since then?

I have bought from outside the EU four times since the 1st of July. Three from the UK and one from Canada. All had Discogs IOSS number on them and three of them had the full invoice glued to the parcel. And all got struck by VAT + fee when entering Sweden. When I complained the answer was that VAT information had to be sent electronically otherwise they would charge VAT no matter what documentation was attached to the parcel.

Bong
andywilsonNever had any issue out of hundreds of parcels sent
The new system has been in place since the 1st of July. Have you sent hundreds of parcels to and Sweden since then?

I have bought from outside the EU four times since the 1st of July. Three from the UK and one from Canada. All had Discogs IOSS number on them and three of them had the full invoice glued to the parcel. And all got struck by VAT + fee when entering Sweden. When I complained the answer was that VAT information had to be sent electronically otherwise they would charge VAT no matter what documentation was attached to the parcel.

Ive sent many parcels to since then but i cannot recall sending to Sweden since July 1st. I'm very sorry to hear that, it may be a problem isolated to Sweden. That is very unfair. It seems an extreme stance taken, but as your shipments were received from countries like the UK and Canada which both require the IOSS information to be electronically sent by the shipper perhaps that is the reason? Its probable customs would have a different procedure in place for countries that cannot enable the IOSS electronically on their shipments. If not im sure they'd be receiving thousands of complaints.

andywilson
countries like the UK and Canada which both require the IOSS information to be electronically

It's not the sending countries that "require" IOSS at all. They don't have any interest in whether you use it or not. It just happens that Royal Mail was among the first to properly implement as required by the EU.

andywilson
Its probable customs would have a different procedure in place for countries that cannot enable the IOSS electronically on their shipments.

Why is that probable? Likewise, they are just not interested and have discretion to apply a charge.

This is such a bizarre thread.

Bong
The new system has been in place since the 1st of July. Have you sent hundreds of parcels to and Sweden since then?

I have bought from outside the EU four times since the 1st of July. Three from the UK and one from Canada. All had Discogs IOSS number on them and three of them had the full invoice glued to the parcel. And all got struck by VAT + fee when entering Sweden. When I complained the answer was that VAT information had to be sent electronically otherwise they would charge VAT no matter what documentation was attached to the parcel.

And this is a Discogs problem or not?

punkergott
And this is a Discogs problem or not?

I'm not sure I understand your question.
The Swedish postal service only accepts information about VAT sent electronically. The same seems to apply to Deutsche Post as well. Invoices attached to the parcel alone isn't enough. It's a Discogs problem in the sense that according to the information communicated to sellers, attaching the Discogs invoice should suffice when clearly that is not the case.
Does that answer your question?

Bong
The same seems to apply to Deutsche Post as well. Invoices attached to the parcel alone isn't enough. It's a Discogs problem in the sense that according to the information communicated to sellers, attaching the Discogs invoice should suffice when clearly that is not the case.

Ok )-:

Bong
Does that answer your question?

Looks so

Well my parcel arrived to , no problems with VAT being double charged. That gives me some confidence in the electronic customs label system. I might add it arrived extremely quickly from Australia - 6 days into the hands of the buyer, no delays at customs. It takes longer than that to send to regional parts of my country!

Bong
The same seems to apply to Deutsche Post as well. Invoices attached to the parcel alone isn't enough. It's a Discogs problem in the sense that according to the information communicated to sellers, attaching the Discogs invoice should suffice when clearly that is not the case.

And now I have to pay twice,
The seller put the IOSS number outside the parcel, I paid via discogs VAT (DE) $30.02

And now I have to pay additional

Kapitalbereitstellungsprovision
Kapitalbereitstellungsprovision (AV) EUR 14,88 MwSt EUR 2,38
Gesamt EUR 14,88 MwSt EUR 2,38

Steuern
EUSt. (TX) EUR 25,60 MwSt EUR 0,00
Gesamt EUR 25,60 MwSt

Gesamtbetrag EUR 40,48

How I get my money back?

redstingray1977
Well my parcel arrived to , no problems with VAT being double charged. That gives me some confidence in the electronic customs label system. I might add it arrived extremely quickly from Australia - 6 days into the hands of the buyer, no delays at customs. It takes longer than that to send to regional parts of my country!

What shows your label?
How was declared that you have paid the tax?

punkergott
How I get my money back?

You can get the VAT paid on Discogs returned. Open a request and tell what happened. Include the order number and a receipt that you paid a second time.

Bong
You can get the VAT paid on Discogs returned. Open a request and tell what happened. Include the order number and a receipt that you paid a second time.

Ok and this works?

So I must wait till the parcel arrived, pay the tax twice and than I send the invoice to Discogs via request. Ok, ….

punkergott
And now I have to pay twice,
The seller put the IOSS number outside the parcel, I paid via discogs VAT (DE) $30.02

And now I have to pay additional

Kapitalbereitstellungsprovision
Kapitalbereitstellungsprovision (AV) EUR 14,88 MwSt EUR 2,38
Gesamt EUR 14,88 MwSt EUR 2,38

Steuern
EUSt. (TX) EUR 25,60 MwSt EUR 0,00
Gesamt EUR 25,60 MwSt

Gesamtbetrag EUR 40,48

How I get my money back?

You would think these would be helpful...

https://blog.discogs.sie.com/en/uk-eu-vat-changes-on-discogs

https://blog.discogs.sie.com/en/uk-eu-vat-faq

But, no...

Did the seller print a shipping label embedded with the IOSS symbol? That will indicate the seller electronically submitted Discogs' IOSS number for customs to scan. The commercial invoice with the IOSS number printed is insufficient to avoid a double tranche of VAT. Discogs haven't helped communicate this info to sellers.

If you want to get your goods out of customs you will have to pay the VAT and additional fee.

I would let the seller know what happened and ask whether they will offer a resolution too. Sending a request will prompt staff to the seller on your order page to refund supply VAT.

Hope all goes well.

RAWFLAVA
But, no...

Did the seller print a shipping label embedded with the IOSS symbol? That will indicate the seller electronically submitted Discogs' IOSS number for customs to scan. The commercial invoice with the IOSS number printed is insufficient to avoid a double tranche of VAT. Discogs haven't helped communicate this info to sellers.

If you want to get your goods out of customs you will have to pay the VAT and additional fee.

I would let the seller know what happened and ask whether they will offer a resolution too. Sending a request will prompt staff to the seller on your order page to refund supply VAT.

Hope all goes well.

He only adds the the commercial invoice on the parcel...
The commercial invoice with the IOSS number printed is insufficient to avoid a double tranche of VAT.
I learn it in the hard way....

punkergott
He only adds the the commercial invoice on the parcel...
The commercial invoice with the IOSS number printed is insufficient to avoid a double tranche of VAT. I learn it in the hard way...

Entirely not your fault. Other EU buyers are experiencing this inconvenience who should not be.

Discogs and the seller are responsible, so make sure you hold them to !

I've just had from a customer in who has had to pay the VAT and although the correct IOSS procedure was followed. It's getting a bit tough to complete what was originally a simple task.

AFAIK my last two shipments to have been received without difficulty.

Jazz_Room_Records
the correct IOSS procedure was followed.

Evidently outcomes can still be a bit variable but I wonder if you could specify what procedure was followed exactly.

I followed the procedure as per discogs. .. I've had no problems before but this particular shipment just did not go through as per previous. It may be because this time I used Royal Mail. Although I used the IOSS system they have which doesn't have discogs in the list but I entered as "other".Entered IOSS IM5280008075 then order number: #69817XX-XX then Customs details. Then through to completion. Printed off the Invoice etc. All signed and dated Attached to package plus correct details in CN22. IOSS sign on front of package.
For singles I normally use Royal Mail, for albums DPD or Hermes. Maybe that was it?

Jazz_Room_Records, what country is the buyer in?

. He sent me pictures. There is the IOSS sign on the label. Discogs Invoice attached. All seems to be in order. But he was charged.

Royal Mail is the culprit. They didn't include the IOSS number in their notification to the German Customs.

punkergott
redstingray1977Well my parcel arrived to , no problems with VAT being double charged. That gives me some confidence in the electronic customs label system. I might add it arrived extremely quickly from Australia - 6 days into the hands of the buyer, no delays at customs. It takes longer than that to send to regional parts of my country!

What shows your label?
How was declared that you have paid the tax?

Electronic CN22 label printed on the front of the parcel, IM5280008075 as the Importer Reference Number Field and 852380 as HS code.

Discogs invoice attached to the back of the parcel in full view, VAT marked with a yellow highlighter as an extra precaution.

From the last two posts , I presume one via RM's Click & Drop , the second over the p.o. counter ?

One IOSS reference number submitted electronically , the other manually.

If so , points the way forward for all UK to EU sellers ... ?

Yes, I sent via click and drop. But mine is from the UK. The other from Australia. So 2 different Postal companies. My DHL insider told me that there have been quite a few Royal Mail "incidents" with regard to non-notification of IOSS to EU Countries Customs systems. Apparently it doesn't matter whether all the paperwork is completed and attached, if it doesn't reach the Customs then they charge.

If electronic integration is a problem between the UK and EU , same can be said for all countries outside the EU.

An average seller outside the EU selling into the EU ... his / her knowledge of what many UK posters on here are now dealing with ... the correct electronic integration ... in our case IOSS reference number / EU VAT ... their equivalent with Discogs charging the new tax upfront ... and their respective post offices ... the mind boggles that any import comes through untouched ?

Seems like i may have opened up a hornets nest with this post.

The original intent of my post was to find out a method of reimbursement to the customer from customs where this incorrect 2nd tax was paid by the customer .
Implying that the seller should refund the tax to the customer simply transfers the injustice onto the seller especially where everything has been done correctly, which from reading many of the posts appears to be the case.

Would appreciate anyone with experience in that direction to help customers get a refund from customs who have had that unfortunate occurrence .
I maintain its always best to show proof at customs that the tax has already being paid by showing the invoice before making the situation more complicated by paying it and then trying to claim it back later.
But as some have pointed out, it seems this may not always be working and customs are still wrongfully charging error tax even when the IOSS number has been electronically implemented and the invoice showing tax already paid attached to the parcel.

andywilson
Implying that the seller should refund the tax to the customer simply transfers the injustice onto the seller

The injustice I'd think you ought to be concerned about is EU buyers hit with border VAT (plus an additional fee) which should be avoided if sellers electronically submit the IOSS number. Customs shouldn't be double charging VAT when ALL the necessary paperwork is done correctly.

If customs refund VAT in any variable circumstance it's entirely at their discretion. I imagine it'd probably be difficult to enforce too. On the other hand, if a buyer goes back to a seller here asking for a supply VAT rebate then the seller can get a fee credit from Discogs after issuing a partial refund, so what is this "injustice" transferred to sellers you're referring to?

From the posts in this thread it would appear even when the IOSS number is electronically submitted and paperwork supplied, some customers are still getting doubly charged tax.

RAWFLAVA are you saying that if the error tax is refunded by seller to the customer, upon proof of documentation this has occured, then discogs will refund that amount back to the seller?

If this is so, thank you for the info, as I didn't know about this and yes that could be a remedy whereby the injustice is not simply transferred from buyer to seller.

andywilson
RAWFLAVA are you saying that if the error tax is refunded by seller to the customer, upon proof of documentation this has occured, then discogs will refund that amount back to the seller?

I can't wholly take credit and this has been mentioned in other threads too...

Bong
You can get the VAT paid on Discogs returned. Open a request and tell what happened.

RAWFLAVA
if a buyer goes back to a seller here asking for a supply VAT rebate then the seller can get a fee credit from Discogs after issuing a partial refund

RAWFLAVA
Sending a request will prompt staff to the seller on your order page to refund supply VAT.

andywilson
thank you for the info

;^)

Thanks RAWFLAVA appreciate that. So would I need to ask the buyer first to send me document proof they paid extra VAT? Then next step I refund the buyer the VAT, and then raise a request for that order.

andywilson
So would I need to ask the buyer first to send me document proof they paid extra VAT?

Just to reiterate...

RAWFLAVA
Sending a request will prompt staff to the seller on your order page to refund supply VAT.

Discogs will require proof import VAT was paid from the buyer directly.

andywilson
Then next step I refund the buyer the VAT, and then raise a request for that order.

You can for confirmation of a fee credit after issuing a refund.

Thanks RAWFLAVA.. So the buyer first needs to issue the request from the order page, then he would need to supply evidence of the second vat charge to discogs before any next step happens ?
In that case I would need to inform the buyer he should do this as currently he has only informed me that he got charged additional vat. I told him he should take it up with customs, he tried to but had no success. That's why I started the thread to see if anything further could be done as I felt sorry for him for what had happened.

andywilson
So the buyer first needs to issue the request from the order page, then he would need to supply evidence of the second vat charge to discogs before any next step happens ?

The buyer simply sends an SR (as already reiterated to you). The buyer should have a notice requesting VAT payment to show Discogs.

Is this clear now?

andywilson
I told him he should take it up with customs, he tried to but had no success.

As expected customs are obliged to collect VAT for their government, hence why IOSS was set up by the EU commission to prevent the possibility of a double dose of VAT levied on buyers, provided sellers ship electronically (with the IOSS symbol embedded on a shipping label). That's the primary way of processing IOSS shipments through customs, not the manual checking of an attached invoice.

andywilson
I felt sorry for him for what had happened.

Me too. I wouldn't want my buyers to deal with that unnecessary inconvenience. Hopefully you'll ship electronically going forward to give your buyers every chance of avoiding this nuisance value.

RAWFLAVA as pointed out by others in this thread the fact of the matter remains that even with IOSS included electronically in the shipping info, there are still issues been reported.(as already reiterated to you).

As for the electronic implementation of IOSS at point of shipment this is not currently available in many countries (as already reiterated to you).

I have had only 1 instance of a situation occurring and when it does occur i now know their is a relatively simple remedy. .

Is this clear now ?
Have a great day..Lol

andywilson
RAWFLAVA as pointed out by others in this thread the fact of the matter remains that even with IOSS included electronically in the shipping info, there are still issues been reported.(as already reiterated to you).

I'm already aware of this as I've been following this thread so I don't need to be reminded. However, the chances of this happening is unlikely. As you know, it's more likely if you don't follow the free advice you've been repeatedly given your buyers will be hit in the pocket.

andywilson
As for the electronic implementation of IOSS at point of shipment this is not currently available in many countries (as already reiterated to you).

So, you can continue to sell to the EU if you want to risk inconveniencing your buyers ;^)

andywilson
I have had only 1 instance of a situation occurring and when it does occur i now know their is a relatively simple remedy. .

Does this "remedy" also include refunding buyers the additional fee they get hit with, in addition to the double VAT you knowingly impose upon them if you continue to ship to the EU ?

andywilson
Have a great day.

Oh I will.

andywilson
Lol

:P

RAWFLAVA I'm curious to know what additional fees you refer to that a buyer would get hit with other than the VAT?

Hows that beer going?

andywilson
RAWFLAVA I'm curious to know what additional fees you refer to that a buyer would get hit with other than the VAT?

Err, so you're still not paying attention. It's not a mystery. How about reading earlier posts where it's been constantly mentioned in this thread, and not only by me.

Please don't tell me you didn't know transporters generally charge an additional customs clearance fee for held items...

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/895492?page=1#8996458

andywilson
Hows that beer going?

I'll let you hold the beer ;^)

Same problem here in the Netherlands, records bought from the UK and the US, pay tax at the checkout and get charged again by Dutch customs.
Non-EU added expenses are about the same cost now as the buying price for the records, and then there's postage...

A big problem seems to be that Discogs doesn't mention the need to electronically submit the IOSS number, neither in the blog post nor in the FAQs:
https://blog.discogs.sie.com/en/discogs-ioss-number-is-now-available/
https://blog.discogs.sie.com/en/uk-eu-vat-faq/
Consequentially most sellers won't know about this requirement.