BAOI; Power- making personal preference changes

Hello all.

In regards to BAOI, there are many ways that people enter them, but as long as it is done correctly, we keep description fields the same as the way the original variant was entered by a .

Showbiz_Kid has taken it upon himself to fix a lot of messy releases' BAOI, but in the process has taken to making personal preference changes. He is removing differentiations between "etched" and "stamped" (which, removal of information is never allowed), and completely changing how Matrix/Runout descriptions appear for releases.

Yes, we all agree that they should be in "one string" format, but you should not be removing descriptions from BAOI when they are accurate. If, say, someone incorrectly entered BAOI as such:

Matrix/Runout (Runout, side A, etched, variant 1): P AL-13089-1A
...
Matrix/Runout (Runout, side A, stamped, variant 1): p 2B STERLING

It can be changed to this, as far as I am aware:
Matrix/Runout (Runout, side A, etched, p 2B STERLING stamped, variant 1): p P AL-13089-1A 2B STERLING

Ultimately, removing data is seen as poor taste, and what Showbiz_Kid is seen doing is changing it to this:
Matrix/Runout (Runout A, variant 1): p P AL-13089-1A 2B STERLING

Sure, it looks neat and orderly, but it lacks any of the previous descriptors the prior state of the release had.

As long as I have used discogs, this is not how BAOI has been changed to properly showcase data sets for a release.

Most recent example of personal preference changes:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/1372103-The-Firm/history?utm_campaign=release-update&utm_medium=pm&utm_source=relationship#latest

Let's discuss this and figure out the best course of action.

Ha! I have never been called a "power " before. Is that a level-up? Do I get the Golden Mushroom? :D

CorticalRecords
personal preference

Ah, that old drum banged again. The skin on that one is pretty thin by now.

Seriously though, this stuff has been discussed ad nauseum at https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/392356 (22 pages of quibbling, enjoy).

However, to cut to the point, I would like to quote Diognes_The_Fox who posted the following here:

Diognes_The_Fox
If there is a good reason for differentiation, it might be a good place to expand that information out in the release notes rather than trying to come up with some system to force it into the matrix area.

I have had some instances where knowing about stamped/etched differences was useful, but those are pretty extreme cases.

Based on this comment, and also functionally IRL, there is little use to noting stamped vs. etched in BaOI description fields. Just enter what's there in a linear fashion and everything is made clear.

However, when something special is indicated by being stamped or etched, such as the Pitman "P" stamp, that should be noted in Release Notes, as I have been doing for years, with something like "Columbia Records Pressing Plant, Pitman press denoted by 'P' stamp in runouts."

I invite everyone to look at this and tell me honestly that what I did detracted from, harmed, or removed any vital information from the sub. The only thing I did not do was to add the Specialty link to Notes, which I it should be done.

You seem to be dancing around the fact that you completely changed the way BAOI appeared from the way it was originally submitted. That, by definition, is personal preference and people have gotten entirely incorrect votes in the past for doing so.

Showbiz_Kid
I invite everyone to look at this and tell me honestly that what I did detracted from, harmed, or removed any vital information from the sub. The only thing I did not do was to add the Specialty link to Notes, which I it should be done.

Chaos before, neat and orderly now. Add the Notes and all is fine IMO.

As I understand it, if you're making corrections, you're at liberty to redraft to your own personal preferences.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/764030

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/764030

This seems to deal with credits and not BAOI

The guidelines ask that all Matrix information to be in one line. So it was a correct edit according to the guidelines in my opinion.

CorticalRecords
This seems to deal with credits and not BAOI

By the same token, nothing in the BAOI part of the guidelines bars moving data for personal preference. I don't think it's any kind of a stretch to say the guidance given regarding credits applies to other elements.

Personally I feel like noting stamped vs etched is important. For later 78s it can be a defining feature to determine the format (shellac vs vinyl).

AndyEvans2
I don't think it's any kind of a stretch to say the guidance given regarding credits applies to other elements.

BaOI does follow the same basic principle
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/786274#7802724

typoman2
Chaos before, neat and orderly now. Add the Notes and all is fine IMO.

+1

CorticalRecords
Sure, it looks neat and orderly, but it lacks any of the previous descriptors the prior state of the release had.

Differentiating between what’s stamped and what’s etched is practically worthless. In my entire experience on Discogs, I can only recall 1 release where it actually was significant.

On the other hand, preference edits bother me because it makes the changelog needlessly difficult to follow and makes it harder to spot newly introduced errors.

On Showbiz_Kid did nothing wrong - they had no choice, but to normalize the Baoi description fields in order to fix the data.

If you really care about identifying the SRC is stamped, you can optionally install it as a Plant ID and use the description field to state that it is stamped in the runouts.

Imho, stamped and etched definitely have their uses, it's their places that confound everyone.

I think if your coming in after the fact and don't do it correctly it can significantly change a submission. Take a look at Pat Benatar - Crimes of ion. There are variations of this record that have the catalog number stamped in the matrices with the pressing info etched, and there are others that have the catalog number etched in the matrices with the pressing info stamped.

A edited the matrices and ruined the original information in the process while adding their copy to the existing sub. If you pick up the history from:

"This one has me a little confused ..... You changed stamped matrices to etched and etched matrices to stamped in the first variant. My copy has the stamped CHE-1275-A- RE -1 and etched SI SXT B as entered over a year ago."

you'll see how the sub was turned.

They finally realized later that their copy did not belong on the sub and removed it ... but left the mess. I didn't want to go round and round with the editor. The sub has yet to be put back to its original state.

swoznia2
Personally I feel like noting stamped vs etched is important. For later 78s it can be a defining feature to determine the format (shellac vs vinyl).

Slightshadow
Imho, stamped and etched definitely have their uses, it's their places that confound everyone.

I think if your coming in after the fact and don't do it correctly it can significantly change a submission.

+1

Slightshadow
There are variations of this record that have the catalog number stamped in the matrices with the pressing info etched, and there are others that have the catalog number etched in the matrices with the pressing info stamped

Why does it matter that you know what’s stamped and what’s etched?

berothbr
Why does it matter that you know what’s stamped and what’s etched?

I think the better question is why does it matter if the designation stays in the record? It certainly doesn't hurt to leave it there.

Showbiz_Kid
Ha! I have never been called a "power " before

I saw the thread title and only read it because I thought it might be me. Why always me (this thread aside)?

berothbr
Why does it matter that you know what’s stamped and what’s etched?

It can help differentiate between runout variations, and in some cases, different pressings. The whole argument that "stamped vs etched doesn't matter" is moot. It's data that should be known, and it should remain on a release. It's what makes something not just correct, but complete and correct. We are trying to get the most complete amount of information on any given release here in this database. To remove any sort of information merely because you don't like how clean it looks is beyond any shadow of a doubt a poor decision.

CorticalRecords
It can help differentiate between runout variations, and in some cases, different pressings.

Have you ever come across a release where this is actually what happened?

berothbr
Have you ever come across a release where this is actually what happened?

But do we know for an absolute fact that it has never happened? That's an important distinction. Whether CorticalRecords has encountered it matters not. If you can't rule out the possibility that the data is useful, why would you want to erase it?

jeffjones22
That's an important distinction.

How does your important distinction answer my question? I honestly want to know. I'm not sure if I'm a super , but I've edited plenty of submissions and can only recall it ever being relevant once. However, I don't spend a lot of time editing, UK pressings, 78s, etc. and would like to know whether there are some instances it's worthwhile to capture.

It can be useful for distinguishing originals from bootlegs. If you have a copy of a record with all runout information etched it is useful to know if that's also the case for a confirmed original.

berothbr
How does your important distinction answer my question? I honestly want to know. I'm not sure if I'm a super , but I've edited plenty of submissions and can only recall it ever being relevant once.

I think you just answered the question yourself. If it's been relevant even once, it's worth capturing because if it's happened once, it's happened other times unless you've seen every record ever pressed.

peterh100
It can be useful for distinguishing originals from bootlegs.

Have you ever come across a release where the unofficial version actually could be told from an original because it was etched and not stamped? I'm not talking about it where the original has information missing on the bootleg, I'm referring specifically where the difference is between what's stamped and what's etched?

jeffjones22
If it's been relevant even once, it's worth capturing because if it's happened once, it's happened other times unless you've seen every record ever pressed.

That's like saying I should worry about getting struck by lightening because it's happened before.

I was going to shut up and let others chime in, but you have set up a straw man ("How do we know it has never happened?") to attack in order to defend your position. Please, that's a defensive posture that accomplishes nothing.

Like everything on this green earth, this community and database are evolving. Look at how it was 10, 12 years ago and its own mother wouldn't recognize it. Some of the ways things were done back then were abandoned as useless, or improved over and over again. Any time that happens, there's growing pains.

We're not talking about a sea change here. We're talking about making things a little more readable and a little more -friendly, especially for new Oggers who boggle at the amount of inside knowledge and arcane procedures that govern how subs are edited. It's second nature to those reading this thread, but I think we all getting our hands slapped when we first came here.

I'm not removing any "valid data". The data is all there, now in a compact, easy-to-read format, which is according to Guidelines in place for 2 years now. And I've gone into the sub that started all this and added a pressing plant link to Notes, along with a notation of the Specialty 'SRC' stamp. The data is completely intact. How is anything harmed?

Showbiz_Kid
How is anything harmed?

Of course nothing was harmed. However, I do want to know —maybe we're missing a section of the database where documenting what's stamped and what's etched is a worthwhile endeavor.

berothbr
Have you ever come across a release where this is actually what happened?

Yes. Can I recall exact instances right this second? No, because i've been through thousands of releases in just this past year alone. But what I can tell you is that there are some instances where data that is usually stamped is etched in some variants on a release, and this is actually relatively common, especially in instances where there is a stamped section scratched out.

I don't know why you all are fighting this so hard. It's data about the release, it should be on the release, and you SHOULD NOT remove data from a release. Period.

I don't think etched and stamped are really relevant.. I have to agree with the others in this thread, I haven't seen a case where it is.
That info should go to the notes if it's really necessary.
If it's that common a distinguishing factor, can someone please post an example to show how and why it's relevant?
So far I've only heard talk in this thread, but have not seen an example showing how it's relevant.
Respectfully, if you want to change people's minds, we need hard evidence to show it's relevant, not just clamor that it is or might be.

CorticalRecords
It's data about the release, it should be on the release, and you SHOULD NOT remove data from a release.

There's nothing removed! Go look at the release! The only stamped portion of the runouts is noted so in the Release Notes. What else do you want?

discosanddragons
So far I've only heard talk in this thread, but have not seen an example showing how it's relevant.

The only case I've run across in my time here has been on the US version of David Bowie - The Man Who Sold The World, where the genuine release has stamped runouts (as do all Mercury pressings of the era), while the bootleg has etched runouts, which is one of the telltale identifiers which does not require a ruler :) On this sub, the stamped matrices are noted in both BaOI descriptions and in Release Notes. This is a case where the need to identify genuine vs. counterfeit justifies calling out the difference.

However in dealing with common releases the distinction is not so useful and, to quote Brent yet again:

Diognes_The_Fox
If there is a good reason for differentiation, it might be a good place to expand that information out in the release notes rather than trying to come up with some system to force it into the matrix area.

I have had some instances where knowing about stamped/etched differences was useful, but those are pretty extreme cases.

Let's be clear: I'm not saying that knowing the difference isn't sometimes useful. I AM saying that, most often, Release Notes are the place for them if judged needful. As has Brent.

Showbiz_Kid
I AM saying that, most often, Release Notes are the place for them if judged needful.

I agree with this. It's just clutter to me in the BAOI section. As are descriptions that try to point out positioning etc. Fodder for the notes.

I use stamped/etched to differentiate between pressings on at least a weekly basis, and it is extremely useful. It often enables me to tell at a glance whether something might be an import or local pressing, without needing to investigate further differences. Obviously cutting down considerably on time sorting through releases with many versions.

It also seems clear simply from the common usage that the vast majority of s also find these distinctions helpful, and the fact that 1 or 2 s (or a handful at most) and a single staff member once think the information *might* be *rarely* useful or "needful" is an example of the worst kind of personal preference edit.

discosanddragons
I don't think etched and stamped are really relevant. I have to agree with the others in this thread, I haven't seen a case where it is.

+1. I generally dislike seeing a long string of descriptors saying what's exactly stamped versus etched in each Matrix/Runout section. It clutters up the release and the info can just as easily go in the release notes.

A bit off topic, but also seeing people make a singular edit to add "Runout" to singular vinyl Matrix/Runout descriptions makes my eyes roll to the back of my head. Same with "Matrix" for singular CD submissions.

CorticalRecords
But what I can tell you is that there are some instances where data that is usually stamped is etched in some variants on a release, and this is actually relatively common, especially in instances where there is a stamped section scratched out.

I would like to learn what these are.

discosanddragons
Respectfully, if you want to change people's minds, we need hard evidence to show it's relevant, not just clamor that it is or might be.

Exactly. AFAICT, these stamped/etched descriptions are little more than reading instructions.

Showbiz_Kid
Ah, that old drum banged again. The skin on that one is pretty thin by now.

What I find humorous about this, still, is you making this assertion but getting the same comment from you in relation to changing what I considered redundant and useless information on a release, and you getting pretty peeved about it. And yet, here we are.

While adding etched or stamped may seem "redundant" and "useless" information, in your opinion, you shouldn't change what someone else may prefer to insert into THEIR release, as you once stated to me "On A Whim". Especially, if they have put a fair amount of work/effort into creating that submission.

I'm sure all of this will fall on deaf ears and you will continue to do as you please, regardless.

twilightambiance
A bit off topic, but also seeing people make a singular edit to add "Runout" to singular vinyl Matrix/Runout descriptions makes my eyes roll to the back of my head. Same with "Matrix" for singular CD submissions.

If I'm understanding your meaning correctly on this, you don't know how much this actually relates to the situation in general!

One single strand.. just as is on the release.

Uniques_Records
If I'm understanding your meaning correctly on this, you don't know how much this actually relates to the situation in general!

Vinyl = information in the runout (also deadwax and end-groove, I've rarely if ever heard matrix used for this area)
CD = information in the matrix
Matrix number = that information

If there is a combination CD/vinyl submission, it makes sense to clarify in the descriptors in BAOI. However, I see no reason to make the distinction when you only have a CD or only have a record. The Matrix/Runout field shouldn't be used to put in the label codes on each of the label sides, that should be in the main notes section. So yeah, it's my thought that putting matrix or runout in these situations is redundant and unnecessary.

It's entirely possible, though, that I just don't deal in the submissions that really need these distinctions. I'm all ears for examples.

twilightambiance
Vinyl = information in the runout (also deadwax and end-groove, I've rarely if ever heard matrix used for this area)

AH, ok. I have yet to see someone do that as yet.

Personally, I find it redundant to type out runout in the description field at all. It says that on the drop down menu already. What's the point of entering the extra information? Or putting Mirrored on CD subs. But hey, This isn't the pet peeves thread or the topic of this thread. Yet very similar.

Uniques_Records
Personally, I find it redundant to type out runout in the description field at all.

It's useful to distinguish between what's on the label as opposed to what's on the runout. You may see it redundant, but it's a couple of seconds of typing at most and can make things a little more clear.

jeffjones22
It's useful to distinguish between what's on the label as opposed to what's on the runout.

RSG §5.2.c Matrix / Run-Out information is often stamped in the run out grooves of records or in the inner ring of CDs.

It's my opinion that the label info should not be put in this section, it's specifically for info in the runout grooves of records or the CD matrix. Probably use something like Other [Label Code].

twilightambiance
It's my opinion that the label info should not be put in this section,

You're certainly entitled to that, but RSG §5.2.c also says, "Matrix numbers can also be found printed on the label, often without the stamper version etc. This can be added in a separate field if desired."

Where better to list the matrix number than in the matrix/runout field, even if it's from the label? It's my opinion that's a better place than "other"

twilightambiance
RSG §5.2.c Matrix / Run-Out information is often stamped in the run out grooves of records or in the inner ring of CDs.

From the same Guideline: "Matrix numbers can also be found printed on the label, often without the stamper version etc. This can be added in a separate field if desired."

twilightambiance
Other [Label Code].

A Label Code is something altogether different - it’s a numerical code that identifies the corporate entity, and it is not used at all on US releases, which is why there’s a separate BaOI selection for it.

Showbiz_Kid
A Label Code is something altogether different

Nah, that's not it and I regret saying it like that. Check this out for instance: Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock

Someone has put the codes on the label for side A/B in the Matrix/Runout section, which I disagree with. I think they either need to be in the notes or in a different section of the BAOI.

Here's a situation where etched vs stamped mattered:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/15065931-Bourbon-Street-Parade-Glory-Of-Love/history#latest

discosanddragons
I don't think etched and stamped are really relevant.. I have to agree with the others in this thread, I haven't seen a case where it is

here's another one: Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs

marcelrecords
here's another one: Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs

Another bootleg vs. genuine sitch, like Bowie.

swoznia2
Here's a situation where etched vs stamped mattered:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/15065931-Bourbon-Street-Parade-Glory-Of-Love/history#latest

Great example.

Again, please take note - I'm not saying it doesn't matter in some cases.
I'm saying Notes are a perfectly acceptable place to make the distinction.

twilightambiance
Nah, that's not it and I regret saying it like that. Check this out for instance: Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock

Someone has put the codes on the label for side A/B in the Matrix/Runout section, which I disagree with. I think they either need to be in the notes or in a different section of the BAOI.

This has been standard practice for years. And it is permissible per Guidelines. You will have a hard time trying to convince people otherwise.

Showbiz_Kid
This has been standard practice for years. And it is permissible per Guidelines.

Which one? I'm looking at RSG §5.2.c which says "Matrix numbers can also be found printed on the label, often without the stamper version etc. This can be added in a separate field if desired."

Separate field, not the same Matrix/Runout field, unless I am misunderstanding. The guidelines need to be a little more explanatory on what separate means. To me, it means something other than "Matrix/Runout". And to bring the point of the thread back home again, from the same guideline:

"Matrix Numbers and other run out information can also be extracted from the whole run out inscription, and added as further 'Matrix Number' fields with descriptions and / or expanded upon in the notes as the submitter sees fit."

In the original example of The Firm (7) - The Firm, the runout information like "SRC" should not have been kept out of the variants and put in one field. The information should be extracted from, not taken away from all of the variants. I agree with that change.

My viewpoint on if etched/stamped should be entered is that it is really hard to know if what parts are etched/stamped if that information isn’t entered. So I might think I have the same variant as already entered when in fact my variant have different parts stamped/eetched and should as such IMO be entered as a new variant.

If the information about what part is entered in the description field or notes is IMO really up to the entering it. As as I read the guide lines both ways are allowed.

Showbiz_Kid
marcelrecordshere's another one: Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs
Another bootleg vs. genuine sitch, like Bowie.

swoznia2Here's a situation where etched vs stamped mattered:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/15065931-Bourbon-Street-Parade-Glory-Of-Love/history#latest
Great example.

Again, please take note - I'm not saying it doesn't matter in some cases.
I'm saying Notes are a perfectly acceptable place to make the distinction.

twilightambianceNah, that's not it and I regret saying it like that. Check this out for instance: Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock

Someone has put the codes on the label for side A/B in the Matrix/Runout section, which I disagree with. I think they either need to be in the notes or in a different section of the BAOI.
This has been standard practice for years. And it is permissible per Guidelines. You will have a hard time trying to convince people otherwise.

As long as it's there somewhere, I'm good.

Diognes_The_Fox

If there is a good reason for differentiation, it might be a good place to expand that information out in the release notes rather than trying to come up with some system to force it into the matrix area.

But how will anyone ever know that "there is a good reason for differentiation" if no one adds the information in the first place?

I understand the logic of adding only relevant information, but for example in this case adding the info is the only way of knowing if it's relevant or not!

j.

typoman2
Showbiz_KidI invite everyone to look at this and tell me honestly that what I did detracted from, harmed, or removed any vital information from the sub. The only thing I did not do was to add the Specialty link to Notes, which I it should be done.
Chaos before, neat and orderly now. Add the Notes and all is fine IMO.

+1

Edit Personally I prefer

Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched, ABCD stamped): 1234567890 ABCD

but @ The Firm (7) - The Firm one information compressed in the release notes makes more sense to me, cause one information Is easier to read:

Notes:
Specialty Records Corporation pressing denoted by "SRC" stamp in runouts.

Barcode and Other Identifiers
Matrix / Runout (Label A): ST-A-845609-SP
Matrix / Runout (Label B): ST-A-845610-SP
Matrix / Runout (Runout A, variant 1): ST-A-845609-A 1-1 SRC
Matrix / Runout (Runout B, variant 1): ST-A-845610-ASMI-2 SP SRC
Matrix / Runout (Runout A, variant 2): ST-A-845609-B 1-2 SRC
Matrix / Runout (Runout B, variant 2): ST-A-845610-A 1-1 SRC
Matrix / Runout (Runout A, variant 3): ST-A-845609-A 1 1 SM1-2 SRC
Matrix / Runout (Runout B, variant 3): ST-A-645610-A 1-3

jeffjones22
It's useful to distinguish between what's on the label as opposed to what's on the runout. You may see it redundant, but it's a couple of seconds of typing at most and can make things a little more clear.

Yeah, that not what I'm talking about though. That makes sense. I'm just talking about adding the word "runout" or "matrix" to the description when it is already there in the drop down. When I add label matrices I add "center label Side" in order to distinguish between the two, Which most people don't, which is confusing.

twilightambiance
jeffjones22It's useful to distinguish between what's on the label as opposed to what's on the runout.

RSG §5.2.c Matrix / Run-Out information is often stamped in the run out grooves of records or in the inner ring of CDs.

It's my opinion that the label info should not be put in this section, it's specifically for info in the runout grooves of records or the CD matrix. Probably use something like Other [Label Code].

+1
But man, have I ruffled feathers with that one!

I'm not going to quote everyone, but for my part, I thought we were discussing why etched or stamped is relevant in the BAOI section opposed to notes of one submission.
Of course it can be the differentiating factor between releases.
I just think it clutters up BAOI section on releases that have tons of variations, or where it's not a simple description. i.e. something like:
Runout, Side A etched, MASTERED BY CAPITOL, MR [circled] stamped
or things to that effect. Descriptions that are not simple should go to the notes IMO.
I'm on the side of it looks better without it and I don't see where anything was lost or damaged so long as it's in the notes.

While on this topic of BAOI descriptions, I'd like to see staff add definitive wording to the guidelines regarding the way runout descriptions are added.
For all the complaining I hear from staff about an overload of requests for seemingly simple disagreements, and countless forum topics on how these descriptions should be entered, this simple solution would likely lighten the workload for everyone.
Pick one way and add it to the guidelines. Then there is no question.
For instance, write in that variants should be noted as "Variant" or "Var." or whatever they choose, I don't care, but pick one term and make it uniform across the database.
Runout descriptions should follow the same suit. Runout, Side A or Side A runout or whatever.
Just pick one way, make it the uniform way to enter that information and don't leave it up to choice or debate.
Everyone has a preference which leads to many pointless arguments and again, makes the sections and database a bit messy and harder to navigate for the new everyone is always so worried about.
Requires no new technology or extra money. Just a line of type, some clear insight and definition and so many problems are solved.
There's so many issues right now where taking a simple stand and adding it to the guidelines would shut down a lot of the petty squabbling and likely lighten the workload for them and cut down on the back and forth in the forums for us.
.

discosanddragons
Just pick one way, make it the uniform way to enter that information and don't leave it up to choice or debate.

swoznia2
Here's a situation where etched vs stamped mattered:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/15065931-Bourbon-Street-Parade-Glory-Of-Love/history#latest

Finally an actual example! So I guess it’s worth it to differentiate on 78s, but still no evidence that it actually matters on everything else.

And again, if it does matter - put it in Notes!

I didn’t quite read the whole thread here, but here is my take:

Etched vs. Stamped is not important to distinguish until there is a distinguishing reason to do so. I have yet to see that.

I like to think about this like just a font. We don’t need to add something like Vocals [Cursive Font] when adding credits. Of course, IF there is a release with different artwork (different font), then we can note the difference, separate the releases, and then we’re good.

Also, please always one complete runout matrix string, not split up into multiple lines.

Showbiz_Kid
And again, if it does matter - put it in Notes!

Or the free description field

punkergott
Matrix / Runout (Runout side A, etched, ABCD stamped): 1234567890 ABCD

I shouldn't need to point out that there is no way to know if the entry for which you are adding runout info needs to distinguish between stamped and etched unless you have knowledge of the runouts of other pressings and their stamp/etch specifics. If no-one records them, there will never be a way to know "if it does matter" or not.

xceque
If no-one records them, there will never be a way to know "if it does matter" or not.

Right, and what plenty of experienced s are saying that it’s extremely rare for this to actually be a distinguishing feature.

I deal with mostly post 1970 records, but I’ve heard it mentioned that maybe shellacs or older records might have this be more of an issue. But overtime for the types of pressing plants we deal with, we can say with confidence that it’s not worth saving that data. But for the niche areas where there are experts, they might rightly say to add that information.

But for the vast majority it doesn’t matter and we shouldn’t worry about being so detailed to capture that info.

I don't really care if we "need" this information or not (I never add it myself because I think it's just clutter) but when it's there it definitely should NOT be removed. Stamped or etched runout is 'valid' info and removing it is not just a preference edit but against guidelines imho.

Violent-Power
but when it's there it definitely should NOT be removed. Stamped or etched runout is 'valid' info and removing it is not just a preference edit but against guidelines imho.

+1

baldorr
Etched vs. Stamped is not important to distinguish until there is a distinguishing reason to do so. I have yet to see that.

This is indeed seldomly a distinguishing factor, but sometimes it is.
Example:
Doe Maar - 4US
This album was released in two different mixes (one approved by the band and one not approved by the band. Long story short: By accident the non-approved mix was pressed onto the vinyl, until the band found out, from that moment on the approved mix was pressed onto the vinyl)
The only way to distinguish the two different versions without actually listening to the record is by looking at the matrix.
The approved mix has etched matrix , the non-approved mix has stamped matrix.
This however are exceptions, most of the times etched vs stamped makes no difference in the actual content of the record.

For the UK Northern Soul scene for instance many records have been bootlegged with lookalike copies trying to deceive the buyers (and books have been written to distinguish them). If the original has stamped info that will be one of the factors to distinguish e.g. The Age Of The Wolf.
But also if certain types of information (e.g. Columbia Recording Studios, Nashville runout info) is etched on some releases and stamped on some (completely different) other releases it might mean something, the period when etching/stamping was done, the location where it was done or the person who inscribed the info. If the information is not recorded we will never know if it's relevant or not.

baldorr
I didn’t quite read the whole thread here, but here is my take:
Etched vs. Stamped is not important to distinguish until there is a distinguishing reason to do so. I have yet to see that.

Reading the posts above would actually help you out here. Including the one added by JeroenG8 we have four examples of this in the thread.

Violent-Power
but when it's there it definitely should NOT be removed. Stamped or etched runout is 'valid' info and removing it is not just a preference edit but against guidelines imho.

I agree with that. Never remove it, when it's added already.

marcelrecords
I agree with that. Never remove it, when it's added already

+1

Yeah yeah yeah.

But let me bring all you newcomers back to the original reason this thread was started: the OP whinging because something positive was actually done to a sub. See here.

Of course useful info shouldn't be removed. That's not the topic.

Nothing useful was removed. A change was made to improve the sub in question, in accordance with opinion by DTF. No data was lost.. A distinction about the stamped pressing plant identifier was moved to Notes, in accordance with Brent's post.

So all of this is beating a dead horse.

what you said about new s and making things more friendly, particularly the part about hand slapping?

Showbiz_Kid
We're talking about making things a little more readable and a little more -friendly, especially for new Oggers who boggle at the amount of inside knowledge and arcane procedures that govern how subs are edited. It's second nature to those reading this thread, but I think we all getting our hands slapped when we first came here.

And then you go and post this...

Showbiz_Kid
But let me bring all you newcomers back to the original reason this thread was started: the OP whinging because something positive was actually done to a sub.

There's nothing friendly in that statement. If I want to see people bullying and belittling others, there are lots of other sites I can go for that. We're all better than this. We can all agree to disagree, but to misrepresent OP's post like this isn't at all constructive.

jeffjones22
to misrepresent OP's post like this isn't at all constructive.

There is no misrepresentation, those are the facts. Please do not mischaracterize it as "unfriendly". If anything, starting a whole thread with now 70 replies, all to point an accusing finger at me for doing something to improve a sub is rather unfriendly, wouldn't you agree?

Especially when - and I will keep repeating this - no information was lost.

Edit for clarification: I was not referring to new Discogs s in my previous post. I was talking to the latest posters to this thread, who I could not fault for perhaps not having read the full 70 posts that came before :)

Showbiz_Kid
But let me bring all you newcomers back to the original reason this thread was started: the OP whinging because something positive was actually done to a sub. See here.

Of course useful info shouldn't be removed. That's not the topic.

Nothing useful was removed.

You only added the info about SRC being stamped to the notes after this thread was started, so it seems to me this thread did have a purpose other than someone "whinging".

Showbiz_Kid
Especially when - and I will keep repeating this - no information was lost.

The info about the rest of the runouts being etched is still gone though, so yes valid info was removed.

Now you're just being obtuse. I itted my oversight in adding the SRC stamp to the Notes, and fixed it.

You can keep repeating that no information was lost and I doubt anyone will disagree with you on that point.

However, this is the phrase I was referring to:

jeffjones22
the OP whinging because something positive was actually done to a sub.

OP didn't come across as "whinging" to me. In fact, the only person in this thread that probably found it annoying is you simply because you were the subject of the post. I and several others saw it as a constructive opportunity to:

CorticalRecords
...discuss this and figure out the best course of action

You set the tone fairly quickly in your response:

Showbiz_Kid
Ah, that old drum banged again. The skin on that one is pretty thin by now.

However you did finally acquiesce and add to the notes.

Had OP not started this thread to begin with, it's unlikely you'd have done that and the info would've been buried in revision history, effectively removing info from the sub.

If anyone's being obtuse, it's you simply because you didn't want to it you were wrong and won't just let it go. If you feel the need to carry on, that's your prerogative, but I'm through fussing with you.

jeffjones22
I'm through fussing with you.

Good, I'm not doing any fussing.

I just want it clear that moving information from BaOI descriptions to Notes is not a "loss of data".

And if I'm testy, it's because such a simple discussion has stretched on for days now.