Adding/Removing 'Editions' in French publisher names

I was going to add this to Tarantxon your comments are appreciated.
Also pinging andygrayrecords.

Looking through some images at Editions Chappell it seems that Editions has been added to various subs without it being present on the release. Similar to the addition on '' to various RCA titles (which credited just RCA), so they appeared on the 'RCA ' page.

Anyways, these should just be credited as 'Chappell' (Chappell (3)) if that's the only credit, i can see no reason to add what is basically an acknowledgement that they are a publisher.

Examples
Agnès Sarkis Avec Jack Dieval Et Son Grand Orchestre* - J'ai Le Mal De Toi / Barcelone

avalon67
Anyways, these should just be credited as 'Chappell' (Chappell (3)) if that's the only credit

Agreed

avalon67
should just be credited as 'Chappell'

+1
Yes, Editeur / Edizioni / Ed. etc. should not be part of any of the Company Names in any language.

At the moment the correct publishing credit is Chappell (3).

A couple of things that I was hoping to get a consensus on in the thread mentioned above (a brief recap):
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/727923

At present the French division is Chappell S.A. Paris.
As the Spanish division would also be under Chappell Ibérica and introduce "Chappell, S.A." (with a comma) for (given what is found on the Profile image), also invalidating "Chappell S.A. Paris" which came from the way the logo was printed for a time.

The next question would be (again); isn't the Label Chappell (3)*?

* this considering "Chappell" is a catch-all abbreviation of Chappell & Co. Ltd..

avalon67
Anyways, these should just be credited as 'Chappell' (Chappell (3)) if that's the only credit

yep

Not only Editions Chappell is not written on release, but it's not on https://www.infogreffe.fr/
Only Editions et Productions Theatrales Chappell which is something else.

Can't find anything for now about Chappell, S.A. with or without comma and Chappell S.A. Paris on Infogreffe but will investigate a bit more.

Tarantxon
At present the French division is Chappell S.A., duplicated in Chappell S.A. Paris.

Also appearing as L'amour S'en Va

typoman2
Also appearing as Chappell Paris

Thanks. That's another non-existent entity that will need to be invalidated.

Tarantxon
Thanks. That's another non-existent entity that will need to be invalidated.

With what? You can't merge with S.A. as we don't merge with and without company ending and IMO not with Chappell (3) as clearly the French branch is identified.
That's why I've created it.

avalon67
Anyways, these should just be credited as 'Chappell' (Chappell (3)) if that's the only credit

+1

typoman2
With what?

Look, I can see how everyone is going to want to see their point of view without caring to understand the purpose of the Guidelines or whatever structure transpires from all the information printed on thousands of releases...
Chappell (3) isn't a Company, it's name we give to justify entering incomplete data because it's closer to the real Company Name and to what's on release.

If your theory was right (must add exactly what we see on each release) the transcription of the printed credit of the Françoise Hardy 45 would be something like:

CHAPPELL - PARIS
PARIS - CHAPPELL
CHAPPELL - PARIS
P - CHAPPELL - C
C - - - - - - - - - - - - P
PARIS - CHAPPELL
CHAPPELL - PARIS
PARIS - CHAPPELL

But it's not a company name (it would be ridiculous), it's a graphic indication that a Chappell subsidiary of Chappell & Co. based in Paris has the publishing rights for one or more of the songs contained. Same with Chappell S.A. Paris
As a matter of fact the Company was called Chappell, S.A. (see image on Chappell (3) should be chosen.

typoman2
can't merge with S.A.

Of course not, primarily because there was a Spanish Company with that name and we're still discussing the best way forward in the other thread.

typoman2
IMO not with Chappell (3) as clearly the French branch is identified.

Well we should, the fact that the whole correct company name is not on the release is enough of a justification, the fact that Paris is mentioned is not an excuse to invent a non-existent company name when it has a name.

Please request a Guideline update. Clearly we are going around and around in circles.
What we need is the Company Name Variation feature added to the database.

Tarantxon
Look, I can see how everyone is going to want to see their point of view

I may point out it's not about my personal point of view but about the way the Publishers are handled normally here in way of crediting and merges. I howl with the wolves here, no more.
And regarding invented company names … we do that all the time … but in this case it has an own logo at least.

Tarantxon
What we need is the Company Name Variation feature added to the database.

… and well, you're here longer than me and you really believe this will happen during my lifetime? I guess not. You know how often we asked for that …

Tarantxon
Yes, Editeur / Edizioni / Ed. etc. should not be part of any of the Company Names in any language.

That's further than I intended pushing for here, but I firmly believe that too, with a very few exceptions.
Chéri* - Working Girl

Universe_In_Blue
Not only Editions Chappell is not written on release, but it's not on https://www.infogreffe.fr/

That's because it's not a company, Some companies do include afaik 'Editions' in their name, but Chappell's French operation was Chappell SA.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/703464#7014407

Tarantxon
the fact that Paris is mentioned is not an excuse to invent a non-existent company name when it has a name.

Agree with this. I don't believe country suffixes should be used. Chappell in this case (on a French release) is a trading name used by Chappell SA. that much is true and like all other releases that don't have a legal suffix, should be credited to Chappell (3)
But....

typoman2
the way the Publishers are handled normally here in way of crediting

this is true too.
I think we should apply some common sense to the way we handle publishers, but I don't see it happening any time soon, much like LNV's.
Never mind, keeps us all interested and doesn't have any negative effect on the marketplace :-)

avalon67
Some companies do include afaik 'Editions' in their name

That's one of the common mistakes we make here. Although there may be exceptions, having "Editions" as part of a Company Name is probably just as incorrect as adding "Music Publishers" or "Music Publishing" to a name and expect it to stick.
Even the "Records" added to Label names is a legacy mistake we have long been trying to eradicate; sadly it's taking years because every profile was written before it was pointed out that the many of the entities we've created in the past don't always match the real company names or labels.

Tarantxon
also invalidating "Chappell S.A. Paris" which came from the way the logo was printed for a time.

Yup, Yay, +1 and okey dokey.

Tarantxon
That's one of the common mistakes we make here. Although there may be exceptions,

That's why I said 'some'.
http://www.hoovers.com/company-information/cs/company-profile.number_two_edizioni_musicali_srl.630ccfe3774438cd.html

https://www.babelio.com/editeur/6310/societe-nouvelle-des-editions-musicales-TUTTI

but nowhere near the amount that are incorrectly listed on Discogs

Universe_In_Blue would probably know more than me/us about them?

Thanks everyone, let's see to it back on to the original thread.
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/727923

I think FromLondon would be very helpful in moving this along with their expertise.

Tarantxon
Yes, Editeur / Edizioni / Ed. etc. should not be part of any of the Company Names in any language

and

avalon67
Some companies do include afaik 'Editions' in their name, but Chappell's French operation was Chappell SA.

I've been wanting to tackle these for quite some time now, but we have to handle these on a case by case Basis.
As far as i have encountered them, the vast majority of those profiles are just made-up, but there are always a small bunch of exceptions, unfortunately.

We have French publishers that include "Édition(s)" in their name - this is about the same case as with "Publishing" in for Anglosaxon publishers.
But, in general, when the credit is "Ed. XXX" , "Ed." refers to the credit role and not to the publishers name, in the same way as "Pub. XXX" we can find on Anglosaxon releases.

So for those, I think we can merge quite safely, if none of the releases shows the name spelled out to "Édition(s)".

For Italian publishers, the situation appears to be similiar. A lot of profiles named "Edizioni XXX" are made-up, too - and when checking, we only find "Ed." or "Ediz." on release, indicating a credit role and not a Publisher Name.
Instead, most of the time, Edizioni does not appear in front Position with ed Italian Publishing companies, but rather in later Position:
Abramo Allione Edizioni Musicali S.r.l.
(note that some of these are incorrectly profiled and / or have wrong Images).

I'd suggest to proceed in the same way as above for the French Releases.

As for German publishers, AFAIK, the situation is a bit different:
First of all, Ed. is usually not used to indicate a Publishing role.
For the Publishers Name, we can find "Verlag" but also "Edition" and it is not uncommon, to find a Publishers Name with "Edition" in front Position - usually, this is written out.

I'd suggest not to attck German Publishers ATM.

There might be also Spanish and Portuguese Publishers we could look at.

In any case, i'd suggest to discuss every case here and make a list of Profile that Need merging, because the implications will be quite massive:
Ed.: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=Ed.&type=label (13598 profiles)
Edizioni: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=Edizioni&type=label&layout=med (1742 profiles)
Edition: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=Edition&type=label (7884 profiles)
Editions: https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?q=Editions&type=label (4202 profiles)

Of course, not all these are concerned...

avalon67
Anyways, these should just be credited as 'Chappell' (Chappell (3)) if that's the only credit

avalon67
Chappell in this case (on a French release) is a trading name used by Chappell SA. that much is true and like all other releases that don't have a legal suffix, should be credited to Chappell (3)

Agree

Tarantxon
back on to the original thread

May as well try and sort out the question of ' Editions Chappell' here as we are making progress.
We have the beginning of consensus it seems :-)

Let's see what velove have to say.

Universe_In_Blue

Editions Chappell is not written on release, but it's not on https://www.infogreffe.fr/

Should we invalidate 'Editions Chappell' and move to Chappell (3)

avalon67
Some companies do include afaik 'Editions' in their name, but Chappell's French operation was Chappell SA.

Yes it was on front cover of a 1931 Chappell publication, as can be seen on images of Chappell S.A., and also on numerous releases.

BTW, I can't find any Chappell SA or Chappell S.A. on https://www.infogreffe.fr/, the only related companies I can find are:
. EDITIONS ET PRODUCTIONS THEATRALES CHAPPELL ed 1970 and yet mentioned in my previous post
. WARNER CHAPPELL MUSIC ed 1986
Both at the same adress 118-126 rue du Mont Cenis 75018 Paris

avalon67
Let's see what Opdiner and velove have to say.

I think you've mostly covered it

avalon67
Should we invalidate 'Editions Chappell' and move to Chappell (3)

That would be my vote. It's one less fudged name in the database.

Thanks Opdiner, any more comments?

Diognes_The_Fox you have an opinion on this?

Universe_In_Blue
Yes it was on front cover of a 1931 Chappell publication, as can be seen on images of Chappell S.A., and also on numerous releases

I assume this is just like, for instance, a UK company may have added 'Music Publishers' on their catalogue or promotional material?
Obviously a description, not part of the name.

Tarantxon
The next question would be (again); isn't the Label Chappell = the Publishing entiy Chappell (3)*?

A profile can be a label & a publisher.

Chappell
Profile: Label and Publishing Company,

If the label and the publisher are the same, why (3)?

Ed Chappell seems to be the same as Chappell. I would move to Chappell.

The Shake Spears - Summertime

FromLondon
Chappell
Profile: Label and Publishing Company,

Yes. I tentatively changed the profile but we need a few more votes in favour of a merge to Chappell. It was indeed the same company's label and both shared the same address at 50 New Bond Street, London, W1

+1 to remove "Editions" from the name & one profile for the label AND the publisher if they are indeed the same

Thanks mtwallet.
I'll try and to 'invite' you to further threads about French companies :-)

Tarantxon
Yes. I tentatively changed the profile but we need a few more votes in favour of a merge to Chappell. It was indeed the same company's label and both shared the same address at 50 New Bond Street, London, W1

I can't see any reason for 2 labels here. Merge +1.

avalon67
Thanks mtwallet.
I'll try and to 'invite' you to further threads

I invited him to comment. We are both trying to tidy up split & legacy labels, so often invite each other to look at threads.

FromLondon
I can't see any reason for 2 labels here. Merge +1

I agree with merge and using Chappell without 3

avalon67
Editions Chappell it seems that Editions has been added to various subs without it being present on the release

FromLondon
Ed Chappell seems to be the same as Chappell. I would move to Chappell.

typoman2
Also appearing as Chappell Paris

Agree to the three propositions

velove
I agree with merge and using Chappell without 3

5.791 vs. 897 releases, too much work for a "cosmetic" (3) ;-)

tele52
5.791 vs. 897 releases, too much work for a "cosmetic" (3) ;-)

This is how Avalon is going to double his Rank Points ! :)

^^Hahahahaha

avalon67
Examples
Image from - Olaf Zalcman - Rose Des Vents (Pour Mes Pianos) / Marlou

Image from - Gérard Manset - L'Atelier Du Crabe

Image from - Agnès Sarkis Avec Jack Dieval Et Son Grand Orchestre* - J'ai Le Mal De Toi / Barcelone

I've fixed these three, this thread has gone off topic now so I'll leave it to Tarantxon

avalon67
I've fixed these three

Thanks for the invaluable contribution, this thread really moved things along; edits are all OK, apart from the use of Chappell (3) which I'm quite sure is going to be eliminated.
I've noticed you've also chosen Éditions Eco Music which would also need to be disabled.
I'll continue the work and discussion in the Chappell thread.

Tarantxon
edits are all OK,

Thanks!

Tarantxon
apart from the use of Chappell (3) which I'm quite sure is going to be eliminated.

Yea, hopefully. But until then that was the correct label to use.

Tarantxon
I've noticed you've also chosen Eco Music instead of Éditions Eco Music

That's the credit given on this label and on this sleeve.
What would you have used?

Here's the first sub on the Eco Music on label.

avalon67
What would you have used?

Obviously now when editing an entry I am giving particular attention to the entities with "Éditions" or similar in the name and checking if they should also be changed to the simple name.

In the last day or two I've come across quite a few. For starters:

S.E.M.I.

Surely the list would be endless...

...and what about Ed. Pépé Luiz?

Tarantxon
Obviously now when editing an entry I am giving particular attention to the entities with "Éditions" or similar in the name and checking if they should also be changed to the simple name.

Éditions Eco Music should be Eco Music
Edition Davout should be Davout Music
Edition Pulsation should be Pulsation Music
Editions Lem should be L.E.M.
Editions Musicales Masq should be Masq
Éditions Semi should be S.E.M.I.

Surely the list would be endless...

And they'll all need to be looked at individually, here's a few examples where "Editions" is indeed part of the company name:

- Editions Musicales Patricia
- Editions Musicales Sforzando
- Editions Musicales ALPHA
- Editions Beuscher Arpège
- Editions Musicales Alain Boublil
- Editions Amplitude
- Éditions Musicales Djanik
- Éditions Musicales Européennes
- Delabel Editions
- Because Editions
- Éditions Salabert
- Editions Adèle
- Éditions Durand
- Editions Aken
- Editions Atlas

Tarantxon
I am giving particular attention to the entities with "Éditions" or similar in the name and checking if they should also be changed to the simple name.

In the last day or two I've come across quite a few. For starters:

Éditions Eco Music should be Eco Music
Edition Davout should be Davout Music
Edition Pulsation should be Pulsation Music
Editions Lem should be L.E.M.
Editions Musicales Masq should be Masq
Éditions Semi should be S.E.M.I.

Maybe we should continue here?

If Éditions Eco Music on others, can we go ahead and invalidate the second?
I would have thought so.
The site that Universe_In_Blue uses, https://www.infogreffe.fr/home shows Eco Music as a company afaict.
https://www.infogreffe.fr/recherche-entreprise-dirigeants/resultats-entreprise-dirigeants.html?ga_cat=globale&ga_q=eco%20music#phrase=eco%20music
but not Éditions Eco Music

Agreement on that?

Apologies for pinging www-the-shop-fr, but do you have any insight here?

Could you look through this list too?
Éditions Eco Music should be Eco Music
Edition Davout should be Davout Music
Edition Pulsation should be Pulsation Music
Editions Lem should be L.E.M.
Editions Musicales Masq should be Masq
Éditions Semi should be S.E.M.I.

avalon67
Thanks mtwallet.
I'll try and to 'invite' you to further threads about French companies :-)

Ouch!

mtwallet

avalon67
do you have any insight here?

Rossmichael
they'll all need to be looked at individually

yep, some are valid brands/labels or companies.

Rossmichael
where "Editions" is indeed part of the company name:

Thank you Rossmichael, I'm not going to attempt tackling any just yet but as you said there's going to be a lot to be discussed case by case. I would hope that, where the legal name includes the wording "Editions" or similar, the profiles would give us clues and hopefully we'll have this list (or an update) handy.

P.S: Just skimming through some the above I'm wondering about Editions Musicales Alain Boublil (as we also have Salabert Francis?).

Tarantxon
P.S: Just skimming through some the above I'm wondering about Editions Musicales Alain Boublil (as we also have Editions Alain Boublil /Alain Boublil Overseas /Alain Boublil Overseas Ltd. /Alain Boublil Publishing /Alain Boublil Comp./Alain Boublil Edition Musical)

Alain Boubil Music Ltd. & Alain Boublil Overseas, Ltd are US ed companies with the latter having a UK branch.
Alain Boublil Edition Musical, Alain Boublil Comp and Alain Boublil Publishing?

Regarding Editions Musicales Alain Boublil (which was ed in 1979.), therefore should be linked to that profile, the same as Alain Boublil Overseas would be linked to Alain Boublil Overseas Ltd.

Tarantxon
(what of Salabert Francis?).

? Atm only managed to find Éditions Salabert SA (ed in 1957, now forms part of Universal) and Éditions Salabert, Inc. (US company dissolved in 1980)

Universe_In_Blue
Not only Editions Chappell is not written on release, but it's not on https://www.infogreffe.fr/
Only Editions et Productions Theatrales Chappell which is something else.

Could Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell?

Rossmichael
Could Editions Chappell be shorthand of the legal entity Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell?

Yes, that's what I think.

Infogreffe site is quite reliable, that's THE legal database, but it's not that easy to find a company, it's important to check also (on "Recherche avancée") no more active companies and subsidiaries.
Plus, it has legal name but not always trade names....

And for discogs, I think the most important is to avoid 2 companies for the same entity.
If possible with name as on the legal database.
Or with name = common part of the names we have on different releases (Chappell for Chappell, Chappel S.A, Editions Chappell, Ed. Chappell, etc ...)?

avalon67
The site that Universe_In_Blue uses, https://www.infogreffe.fr shows Eco Music as a company afaict.
.....
but not Éditions Eco Music

Yes ECO Music here and no ECO Music Editions on Infogreffe.
ECO Music, mentioned as revoked in 1982 on Infogreffe, that looks consistent with what we have on discogs on Éditions Eco Music even if there are a lot of releases with release date after 1982. It looks like songs were not published by Eco Music after 1982 (but I didn't look at that very carefully for now).

Universe_In_Blue
Infogreffe site is quite reliable, that's THE legal database,

I used a different database, but the results come out the same in this case. The one thing to be careful of though (not so much in this instance), only because a defunct company doesn't show in e.g. "Infogreffe" or "companies house UK" databases, that's not to say a company didn't exist.

Universe_In_Blue
Yes, that's what I think.

And for discogs, I think the most important is to avoid 2 companies for the same entity.
If possible with name as on the legal database.

I understand what your saying, but that's not how we do it. If Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell, and that's how the credit appears on a release, both profiles are valid, and should be linked, the same as we do with UK, US companies etc....

Rossmichael
legal entity Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell,

Seems to be another legal entity created in 1970 and ed SIREN 702 033 804
https://www.societe.com/societe/editions-productions-theatrales-chappell-702033804.html
but I suspect it's a book publisher.

Tarantxon
but I suspect it's a book publisher.

It's the same music publishing company, book publishing is just a general classification.

Caroline Molko even listed as a Director in your link above, Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell intial address was 4, rue d'Argenson, Paris, the same as Chappell S.A. - https://www.discogs.sie.com/David-Perian-Orchestra-Happy-Music-And-Crazy-Music/release/915598#images/1154190

Edit: typo

Rossmichael
If Editions Chappell is considered shorthand of the legal entity Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell

Yes, I agree some of the entries that credited "Editions Chappell" will have to be moved again, we should establish a timeline to indicate in which years the entity "Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell" would have been active.

Tarantxon
we should establish a timeline to indicate in which years the entity "Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell" would have been active.

Incorporated 1970, as of at least 2003 99% owned by Warner Chappell Music S.A.S., still ed as of 2018. Active: 1970 to present.

Links to Warner Chappell Music S.A.S., being the immediate parent as of 2003
- "EXHIBIT B Subsection 3.06(b)" (near the bottom of link)
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1309859/000104746905001293/a2148717zex-2_1.htm

As can be seen Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell also subsequently owning (as of 2003) 10% of Swiss ed company - Editions Chappell S.a.r.l. - GmbH (which was established in 1965, as an S.A?)

Yes Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell from 1970 and still active, as per https://www.infogreffe.fr/entreprise-societe/702033804-editions-et-productions-theatrales-chappell-750170B033800000.html?typeProduitOnglet=EXTRAIT&afficherretour=false

Editions Et Productions Théâtrales Chappell

It's OK now.

I found Editions Chappell.

Waiting for more on merging Publishers to Chappell (3))