Heads up: Potential influx

Hey y'all,

The group I am working with this quarter is making it a goal to reduce active s on the CIP by 3.5%. This process will involve polling active to find out what they are having difficulties with and improving our help documents and communication to better educate newer s to avoid getting into the CIP altogether -- something I'm sure many of you would like to see.

As a result, we are hoping that there are likely going to be a higher volume of people posting here than normal once they have identified and corrected what needs to be changed. Mentorship and voting assistance here would be greatly appreciated towards welcoming back reforming contributing of our community.

Please feel free to ask any questions. We are going to begin that communication effort in the near future!

One problem I have is that despite the following statement "Guidelines are not Rules" it seems very much like the guidelines are strict rules?

https://reference.discogslabs.com/wiki/Undocumented-Guidelines

Diognes_The_Fox
Mentorship and voting assistance here would be greatly appreciated towards welcoming back reforming contributing of our community.

Just found this thread. It goes without saying, I totally this effort and will gladly try my best to help whomever.

I'm still a relatively new enough to the CIP, so I have a few suggests (FWIW):
1) Landing on the CIP is not a bad thing (usually) and something that happens to many s after they start contributing (although I could be wrong about the last part). I thinking that Discogs was going to banish me or something when I first received that email, so maybe the language can be adjusted a little bit so that CIP entrants don't panic, feel discouraged, or unappreciated, but rather that it's really normal and really is just about improvement and not supposed to be feel punitive.

2) For CIP s who are uncomfortable with the idea of posting to an Internet forum, maybe we can put together a list of mentors that they can PM directly? I know this sounds like enabling forum avoidance, but I see it bridge to get people comfortable enough to start posting as I'm confident most mentors will show mentees the importance of the forums as a resource.

3) One thing I really wanted when I first ed were some concrete examples that I could model my submissions/edits. This was especially true when I was trying to figure out the Quick Start Guide. I browsing through the DB looking for examples to use a resource, but also not knowing what I was really looking for (if that makes sense?). What talking about is different than the reference document that you've proposed elsewhere, and what I'm really talking about are just a handful of uncomplicated, but still C&C submissions for a few common formats that someone can look it at see what the end goal should be (any of your non-quirky submissions would of course be perfect examples — the quirky ones are usually complicated and probably would scare some people off (just joking)).

4) This might be a bad idea, but I could see a checklist or small list of common submission pitfalls being helpful. Some examples:
• Are the track positions ok? (A1, B1, B2, etc. on sided releases),
• Did you rely on external sources of info, if so, then did you add it to the submission comment?
• Is it a digital release? If so, did you add the URL to the DL in the submission comment?
• If you copied from a draft, did you to remove the info not found on this version?
—I'm not sure if those are good ones, but a quick reference thing can help someone to double check the stuff that even the most well intentioned experienced s tend to give less experienced s a hard time over.

I like the idea of having a list of the most common errors and examples of how to avoid them

There's a lot of good stuff here! I wanted to share some tidbits that might be interesting.

Our team this quarter looked at a lot of different aspects of the CIP. We've been doing a mixture of reviewing our help docs for readability, manually reviewing s that appear to have made corrections but hadn't received enough votes, and hopefully going to be issuing a multi-lingual message blast out to ~4400 CIP (hence this thread).

First looked at 100 neg votes to try and find common issues. There's about 20.

Used this to send out a survey to 400 CIP and about 15% responded.
53% - The most common issue that the responders had was that english was not their first language
48% did not feel the voter provided adequate information as to what needed to be changed or how to go about doing it.
38% - Not sure what is / is not minimum required information for a submission.
38% - Didn't know that websubs weren't allowed.
38% - Unsure of site specific technical (ex, Index Track, Master Release)

berothbr
1) Landing on the CIP is not a bad thing (usually) and something that happens to many s after they start contributing (although I could be wrong about the last part). I thinking that Discogs was going to banish me or something when I first received that email, so maybe the language can be adjusted a little bit so that CIP entrants don't panic, feel discouraged, or unappreciated, but rather that it's really normal and really is just about improvement and not supposed to be feel punitive.

2) For CIP s who are uncomfortable with the idea of posting to an Internet forum, maybe we can put together a list of mentors that they can PM directly? I know this sounds like enabling forum avoidance, but I see it bridge to get people comfortable enough to start posting as I'm confident most mentors will show mentees the importance of the forums as a resource.

We're looking at these. I'll bring up the idea for private mentors. Mostly I've been either sending people to the forums, the specific group for the language they speak, and/or helping them directly myself.

berothbr
the quirky ones are usually complicated and probably would scare some people off

I actually couldn't agree more. As much as I love seeing more data, better examples of minimum required information subs would be good. Many newer s are not aware that a simple submission can still be considered valid for a correct vote. A lot of CIP cases could have been avoided if the held off on adding more esoteric information until they became more experienced.

The frustrating thing is when you advise s they ignore the comments and continue to submit making the same errors.

Usually I go through the days Elvis submissions (as this is the artist that I collect).
If a new submitter I point out errors and point them to relevant guidelines, even giving the correct Artist , label, or cat number needed to make a basic submission correct.
Often you find that they will only change part of a submission but leave areas unchanged because they believe that they know better. This then results in a game of comment tennis.
Sometimes you end up with no alternative but to vote if they either ignore or as I have seen make changes, leave it a week or two then revert the changes because thy think it's better the way it was. ( They haven't realized that it will show up in the submissions list again, and think I wouldn't notice that they changed it back!)

What is more frustrating is who have been here 5 years plus, making submissions with basic errors such as numbering, capitalization, or copying from draft but leaving notes specific to the original version.

Diognes_The_Fox
A lot of CIP cases could have been avoided if the held off on adding more esoteric information until they became more experienced.

Quoted for truth.

I wanted to add that this CIP initiative is off to a strong start -- we've hit that 3.5% goal, and will start looking at how active these "liberated" s are with their future subs. A good number of people who have recently left the CIP are active again, and participating, but we obviously want to make sure they're understanding why they entered CIP in the first place.

berothbr
I could see a checklist or small list of common submission pitfalls

We're definitely doing this as Brent pointed out. Non-English speaking s is definitely way up there as a common pain point, and the rest are your common "I wasn't aware websubs were against the rules" kind of things. A lot of times overzealous veterans fire off votes to newbies that land them in CIP, so a lot of this is a combo of newer s not taking time to read guidelines, and then also getting caught up with an experienced submitter not having a lot of patience for the newbies. We're getting close to a manageable middle ground which is good to see.

Diognes_The_Fox
A lot of CIP cases could have been avoided if the held off on adding more esoteric information until they became more experienced.

I totally agree and always feel bad whenever I bump into a classical music fan who's just starting out. I try to help, but really I just want to tell them to forget those and just try submitting a 7" (way easier!).

In all serious, although this is true with new submissions, the problem I had when I was on the CIP, which I think is common, is that I basically received a bunch of votes for edits I made to existing submissions. The common reaction to I see is to simply remove the problematic info altogether (example), which can in itself cause problems for the due to RSG §14.1.4. For me, I this happened when someone told me to use an ANV. I couldn't figure it out other than that it was an acronym for nonsense and, naturally, the other versions also were wrongly entered, so I just reverted the release to a less accurate state of existence that mirrored the other versions. I was only able to fix it after a mentor walked me through it. In other instances, I was able to dissect another version and figure out what was wrong from there.

MarbleheadJohnson
A good number of people who have recently left the CIP are active again, and participating, but we obviously want to make sure they're understanding why they entered CIP in the first place.

Without getting into details, a who had posted something I followed up to in another thread actually messaged me this morning to basically stated their case for why I should not have placed them on the CIP and asked that I remove them from it. I kindly explained that only Discogs places and graduates someone from the CIP (I obviously also offered to help).

The rub here is that there's this stigma that being placed on the CIP is like one step away from banishment and something personal and negative. Sure the restrictions are annoying, but I honestly think it's nearly impossible to become a contributor without first landing on the CIP just because there is a learning curve.

Diognes_The_Fox
48% did not feel the voter provided adequate information as to what needed to be changed or how to go about doing it.

This is 100% our fault and something we need to improve on. However, one thing that might help a little bit would be if the recipient of the vote was strongly encouraged to PM and/or ask in the forums if they were unsure. Maybe a little text in the notification instructing us how to go about figuring out what we did wrong might help a little bit.

Diognes_The_Fox
38% - Unsure of site specific technical (ex, Index Track, Master Release)

I've wrote elsewhere, but I really think the Glossary, Credits List, and Formats List would benefit from adding at least cursory definitions for every term, as some are presently blank and, at least for the glossary, increased visibility and further expansion with more hyperlinks. I noticed today you updated the GL to normalize some for consistency, which I thought was really great and is something that could really be done across the board and I think could help.

MarbleheadJohnson
Non-English speaking s is definitely way up there as a common pain point,

This is a huge challenge. However, I do think that even with native english speakers, the GLs can be overwhelming just because it's not really something you can sit down, read through, and totally understand how everything works. However, visual/interactive aids such as linked examples, screenshots, and screencasts are all ways that can help show someone the way with minimal ESL requirements.

berothbr
3) One thing I really wanted when I first ed were some concrete examples that I could model my submissions/edits. This was especially true when I was trying to figure out the Quick Start Guide. I browsing through the DB looking for examples to use a resource, but also not knowing what I was really looking for (if that makes sense?). What talking about is different than the reference document that you've proposed elsewhere, and what I'm really talking about are just a handful of uncomplicated, but still C&C submissions for a few common formats that someone can look it at see what the end goal should be (any of your non-quirky submissions would of course be perfect examples — the quirky ones are usually complicated and probably would scare some people off (just joking)).

Want to second this: Maybe one for LP, CD, 8-track, cassette, 78 etc. Maybe 7-10 of the most frequent ones with the bare minimum of info (I would also suggest that pics be included in bare minimum as this is how other s can check and add to submissions). And perhaps this should pop-up when a enters the format (maybe another pop-up if someone enters classical in the genre).

I think the guidelines are generally clear and well-written. However, much of the information is not necessary for the basic submission.

Also, CIP does feel like a ban. Perhaps clearer information about how one gets off would be helpful - i.e. what vote average do you need? what are the metrics here? etc. Right now, it's a series of steps (which I followed) that may or may not end the status.

As someone who has been on CiP for years...would love a mentor to help me get things fixed. I have so many more records I would love to add to the database.

steve.fletcher
What is more frustrating is who have been here 5 years plus, making submissions with basic errors such as numbering, capitalization, or copying from draft but leaving notes specific to the original version.

Agreed. If you've done your best and they're still resisting making basic changes, vote appropriately, make the edit, report, or some combination.

stl_ben
As someone who has been on CiP for years...would love a mentor to help me get things fixed. I have so many more records I would love to add to the database.

Congrats! You were voted out.

berothbr
In all serious, although this is true with new submissions, the problem I had when I was on the CIP, which I think is common, is that I basically received a bunch of votes for edits I made to existing submissions. The common reaction to I see is to simply remove the problematic info altogether (example), which can in itself cause problems for the due to RSG §14.1.4. For me, I this happened when someone told me to use an ANV. I couldn't figure it out other than that it was an acronym for nonsense and, naturally, the other versions also were wrongly entered, so I just reverted the release to a less accurate state of existence that mirrored the other versions. I was only able to fix it after a mentor walked me through it. In other instances, I was able to dissect another version and figure out what was wrong from there.

I see this time and time again.

berothbr
I've wrote elsewhere, but I really think the Glossary, Credits List, and Formats List would benefit from adding at least cursory definitions for every term, as some are presently blank and, at least for the glossary, increased visibility and further expansion with more hyperlinks. I noticed today you updated the GL to normalize some for consistency, which I thought was really great and is something that could really be done across the board and I think could help.

I'm really into this. I can edit those definitions pretty easily, I just need wording to add there.

berothbr
The rub here is that there's this stigma that being placed on the CIP is like one step away from banishment and something personal and negative. Sure the restrictions are annoying, but I honestly think it's nearly impossible to become a contributor without first landing on the CIP just because there is a learning curve.

Back in the day 100% of s used to be restricted to a handful of pending subs at a time. The system was more problematic than this one, but this one isn't perfect either.

The stigma is bad and I'm not sure how to change that. The CIP can be good, but I do see a lot of people placing votes, the submission gets edited and then nothing happens again. I think I could remove some of the voting stigma if I made an effort to add submissions I've voted/commented on to saved submissions and checked in on them at a later time.
When I'm out and about editing, I try and leave correct votes on submissions that are already basically correct before adding more information to them. This way the last editor gets some appreciation for their work, which may ively be helping someone out of the CIP or helping them avoid the CIP altogether.
Many people that do go into the CIP have a fair percent of edits they have made that have resulted in the submission meeting the basic requirements for a correct vote.

jdowd73
Want to second this: Maybe one for LP, CD, 8-track, cassette, 78 etc. Maybe 7-10 of the most frequent ones with the bare minimum of info (I would also suggest that pics be included in bare minimum as this is how other s can check and add to submissions). And perhaps this should pop-up when a enters the format (maybe another pop-up if someone enters classical in the genre).

I got a lot of about this. I think this is going to be my next step.

The cool think about submissions is that we can directly link to different edits in the release history to highlight differences and whatnot.

Diognes_The_Fox
I'm really into this. I can edit those definitions pretty easily, I just need wording to add there.

Awesome. How do you want us to supply you with the definitions, i.e., should we start a new thread and basically issue a call to arms for definitions of the existing credits, formats, and ? A separate thread for the Formats List, another for the Credits List, and a third thread for the Glossary? Do you want us to take the initiative and then ping you each time there's a new and approved definition to be added? (not sure how much you have on your plate right now). FWIW, a lot of empty ones basically write themselves and should be uncontroversial, e.g., "Score Editor", "Cylinder", etc.

Diognes_The_Fox
The stigma is bad and I'm not sure how to change that.

When I received the 'you're on the CIP' email, I being super worried that I was one step away from banishment and that it was really bad, i.e., like I was a Discogs vandal. There's only so much that you guys can do, but some friendly statistics that show it's normal/common, e.g., ##% of s end up on the CIP, ##% of s graduate within ## time, etc. + more emphasis about how the CIP doesn't mean you can't participate and has zero bearing on the Marketplace would have helped reassure me.

Another thing I is that it was practically impossible getting votes (or even constructively critical comments) even though I had posted as many times as allowed to the 'request for votes' thread. Personally, I try to vote the same way as you described, but really don't make a regular effort to find releases I'm not about to edit or not interested in to review for votes. Two things Discogs may consider exploring:
1) Incorporating the # of votes cast into the formation for what's requires to maintain our voting privileges would help move people on and off the CIP. This might be a bad idea because it will inevitably incentivize BBV (blind buddy voting), but it could still help, so IDK.
2) Another would be to just add a line to the contributor statistics on our profiles that shows something like the total # of votes cast and avg. # of votes cast / week. Personally, I usually forget that's even there, but if I could compare how well I use my voting powers relative to the community, then I might pay a little more attention. Likewise, if I noticed my numbers were really low relative to others, then I might feel the urge to devote more energy towards reviewing other people's submissions.
(these last bits are basically food for thought BTW)

maybe make it easier get off, right now, you just hoping and praying someone willing to spend sometime and help you, if this CIP thing is going to work, you need dedicated CIP Staff, people who's job is to work on the program because CIP is bullcrap in how it works right now, it should not take up to 1 or 2 months to get votes.

TReimer
1 or 2 months to get votes.

If Discogs had 'graduated' me from the CIP in less time than this period, it would not have been beneficial as I likely would have just ended up back on there. However, I agree it's tough to get votes without the benefit of a mentor or two.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/cip_list
Should this list be made more public? Really easy to see who wants votes.

I'm shocked berothbr has been to CIP! Me too. A few times. Never again hopefully.

truedream
I'm shocked berothbr has been to CIP! Me too. A few times. Never again hopefully.

It was a good thing! And I really believe inevitable for anyone who first starts out —there's just a learning curve to overcome and it's really best that there are restrictions in place so that s can focus on figuring things out on a smaller more familiar number of releases before moving on.

berothbr
PedanticGhostGnome1 or 2 months to get votes.
If Discogs had 'graduated' me from the CIP in less time than this period, it would not have been beneficial as I likely would have just ended up back on there. However, I agree it's tough to get votes without the benefit of a mentor or two.

when i say less time, i talking someone who made one mistake or people only needed a small amount training, there some who need to be on it for longer but some don't but are still waiting a vary long time to get votes, i made one mistake yesterday and learned what i did wrong vary fast but i know i'm going to be waiting for at least 2 weeks because I've been once before and ed.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/cip_list
Should this list be made more public? Really easy to see who wants votes.

that's easier said than done, the forum software there using horribly out of date and badly made, just getting to this page is like going through a maze, so i have no clue were they could put it to make it more publicly visible

TReimer
i made one mistake yesterday and learned what i did wrong vary fast but i know i'm going to be waiting for at least 2 weeks because I've been once before and ed.

But you made the same mistake (PAN swapping) across quite a few releases. However, while reviewing your submissions as requested in your other thread, I noticed quite a few other small/minor mistakes repeated across releases. This is of course 100% ok — nobody's perfect and everyone makes mistakes (or at least I do). However, it's my understanding that the CIP is not an annoyance that can be eliminated with a few quick edits. Rather, I think it's supposed to encourage you to really review your releases for errors (or potential errors), common areas of uncertainty, etc. and then engage in the forums, really review the areas of the GLs that cover the themes you are running into trouble with, and figure out how you can improve your skillset as a contributor. Unfortunately, the best way to do this is through trial and error + communication with other s, all of which requires time and effort and certainly more so than a couple of weeks.

berothbr
Awesome. How do you want us to supply you with the definitions, i.e., should we start a new thread and basically issue a call to arms for definitions of the existing credits, formats, and ? A separate thread for the Formats List, another for the Credits List, and a third thread for the Glossary? Do you want us to take the initiative and then ping you each time there's a new and approved definition to be added? (not sure how much you have on your plate right now). FWIW, a lot of empty ones basically write themselves and should be uncontroversial, e.g., "Score Editor", "Cylinder", etc.

These are really good organizational questions. I'm not sure yet. We're winding up Q2 projects at the moment (The CIP push). I'll make note of this as a potential Q3 project.

berothbr
When I received the 'you're on the CIP' email, I being super worried that I was one step away from banishment and that it was really bad, i.e., like I was a Discogs vandal. There's only so much that you guys can do, but some friendly statistics that show it's normal/common, e.g., ##% of s end up on the CIP, ##% of s graduate within ## time, etc. + more emphasis about how the CIP doesn't mean you can't participate and has zero bearing on the Marketplace would have helped reassure me.

This is a fair assessment. I'll see what can be done here. Changing this involves development work, so that might be a little more involved to get accomplished.

berothbr
Another thing I is that it was practically impossible getting votes (or even constructively critical comments) even though I had posted as many times as allowed to the 'request for votes' thread.

I can't stress this enough. I think there's a huge fear among voters of being called out for bad C votes because you voted on material you're not entirely familiar with. I have this fear, especially considering the example I'm supposed to be setting.

I try and vote correct before editing a sub (where I wasn't previously the last contributor before them). It's increased the amount of voting I do by a huge percent.

berothbr
1) Incorporating the # of votes cast into the formation for what's requires to maintain our voting privileges would help move people on and off the CIP. This might be a bad idea because it will inevitably incentivize BBV (blind buddy voting), but it could still help, so IDK.

There used to be mention of removal of privileges if they weren't used in RSG §20.1.2., but that was never enforced so it was stricken. I'm also not entirely sure how the CIP system works. Like the voting system, it's a few different factors. Probably not as complex though.

berothbr
2) Another would be to just add a line to the contributor statistics on our profiles that shows something like the total # of votes cast and avg. # of votes cast / week. Personally, I usually forget that's even there, but if I could compare how well I use my voting powers relative to the community, then I might pay a little more attention. Likewise, if I noticed my numbers were really low relative to others, then I might feel the urge to devote more energy towards reviewing other people's submissions.
(these last bits are basically food for thought BTW)

I like this idea.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/cip_list
Should this list be made more public? Really easy to see who wants votes.

We linked it to RSG §21.4. to help fix that a few weeks ago. I'm still not really sure where to find that list otherwise. :/

berothbr
This is of course 100% ok — nobody's perfect and everyone makes mistakes (or at least I do). However, it's my understanding that the CIP is not an annoyance that can be eliminated with a few quick edits. Rather, I think it's supposed to encourage you to really review your releases for errors (or potential errors), common areas of uncertainty, etc. and then engage in the forums, really review the areas of the GLs that cover the themes you are running into trouble with, and figure out how you can improve your skillset as a contributor. Unfortunately, the best way to do this is through trial and error + communication with other s, all of which requires time and effort and certainly more so than a couple of weeks.

100% solid advice.

Diognes_The_Fox
truedream
https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/cip_list
Should this list be made more public? Really easy to see who wants votes.

We linked it to RSG §21.4. to help fix that a few weeks ago. I'm still not really sure where to find that list otherwise. :/

Cool I hadn't seen that. Good step I think. Thanks.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/help/cip_list
Should this list be made more public? Really easy to see who wants votes.

Diognes_The_Fox
We linked it to RSG §21.4. to help fix that a few weeks ago. I'm still not really sure where to find that list otherwise. :/

I put a link to the CIP list on my profile page - together with some other links that I think might be useful to me.
That's the only chance for me to the pure existance of this list and to go there at least from time to time.

Diognes_The_Fox
This is a fair assessment. I'll see what can be done here. Changing this involves development work, so that might be a little more involved to get accomplished.

One idea = Something like a blog post that's basically like a FAQ to dispel the myths.

Diognes_The_Fox
There used to be mention of removal of privileges if they weren't used in RSG §20.1.2., but that was never enforced so it was stricken. I'm also not entirely sure how the CIP system works. Like the voting system, it's a few different factors. Probably not as complex though.

Maybe instead of the threat of removal, there can be language inserted that basically strongly encourages those of us with voting privileges to reciprocate by voting not only on releases in our collection and those submitted by familiar faces, but also new s and CIP with a link to the 'request for votes' thread. Basically, make it even easier for us to find vote requests and instill a little sense of guilt for not making more of an effort to do that. Also not sure if this is a good idea, but it's just a thought....

berothbr
One idea = Something like a blog post that's basically like a FAQ to dispel the myths.

I think this is worth looking into.

https://.discogs.sie.com/en//solutions/articles/13000033467-how-to-get-your--removed-from-the-contributor-improvement-program-cip-

I wrote this up for the email blast. Hopefully it's working in some capacity.

Another thing that's worth noting is that I'm sure a certain percent of the CIP has no desire in contributing ever again, and that's fair too. It's hard to say.

Diognes_The_Fox
53% - The most common issue that the responders had was that english was not their first language

Doesn't that suggest the most worthwhile move would be to get some translations of the guidelines written up?

Diognes_The_Fox
I think this is worth looking into.

Maybe something that's like a companion piece to the article that's a little more conversational/informal? It should be pretty quick to put together and is just another opportunity to persuade s that it's not something to be discouraged about and hopefully reel in a few who might have otherwise quit.