RSG I Staff I EI votes I CIP

RSG I Staff I Votes I CIP

By following RSG:

RSG §1.8.1 The default language of Discogs is English. However, Discogs s Unicode and allows releases in any language and character set. Releases must be submitted in the language used on them, they should not be translated or transliterated.
RSG §2.1.2 Names are entered as they appear on the release. Use the field to link multiple artists as they are linked on the release, with a comma between them if there is no er on the release itself. Use the ANV function for name variations. Abbreviations follow the usual rules.

RSG §2.5.6 The Primary Artist Name should be the most relevant version of the Artists Name. For example, when the artist has a "recording name" it should be the Primary name, and the variations found in the releases fine print should be the ANV.

RSG §2.12.1. Swapping about primary artist names should only be done as a last resort, after discussion and a clear need to do it.

So, PAN swapping is NOT something forbidden. IMO, since more than double of the releases are submitted with ANV because they are in Greek and not in Latin transliteration, errors could be avoided and submissions could be easier in future!

[PAN] proposition for artist Πύξ Λάξ
This one was voted for YES and I made the swap from Πυξ Λαξ successfully I think [with a fully updated profile].. It was voted as CORRECT
Since yesterday, specific s based on nik's opinion on the first proposition:
In my opinion, we should not be swapping Primary Artist Names about here. The guidelines were not intended to allow the PAN / ANV count to be used to determine what the PAN should be. The guidelines are mostly concerned with what to use on first entry to the database. Only in extreme cases (maybe when there is 1 use of the PAN, and 100 of ANV language variations) should things be considered for changing.
they started voting ENTIRELY INCORRECT put me to 2 TIMES in CIP gave more than 200 negative votes [until now] that resulted in an AveRAGE vote: 2.05 - Last 10 Day AveRAGE [today]: 1.08 [the .08 is from a correct all the rest are "1"]and started to REVERT Pyx-Lax ignoring the fact that there was a response also from staff or that this swap was voted for YES [The attack goes on as you read this..]:
you are welcome to continue discussing the need for change in the forums at this time.
Ticket ID: 208969 and finally I got a temporary BAN from all forums "due to a high volume of argumentative behavior"
Why? This swap didn't help the DB? Was it wrong according to the RSG?
Last but not least cases as such: [PAN] proposition for Manos Xydous ➪ Μάνος Ξυδούς are not sufficient for swap with more than 4 times the Greek name than the transliterated, then RSGs need changes for sure..

● Now my question is this: Are we going to follow RSGs or not?
● Also IMHO the last thing we want is RSGs with blurry parts such as «last resort» and «clear need to do it» Why these expressions exist at all? What purposes do they help? Why not to use the word majority? Since this is a build DB the least that management can do is to clarify borderlines, because as such phrases are elaborated subjectively.
● Some s generated nik's opinion in every single swap! Is this acceptable by the management? On the other hand if opinions matter that much, in order to receive EI and CIP, why not to transform them into RSGs?
● Also I'd like to know one more thing: Is it acceptable for Entirely Incorrect voting to be used so easily, and not only that but to suggest to others to do the same I started by EI voting here: Pyx-Lax. Feel free to follow up, I don't have time for niw... here?
Because also according to the RSGs:
RSG §20.2.2 All votes should be based on the current Submission Guidelines. Please follow and keep up with changes in the Submission Guidelines. Guideline changes will be posted in the news forum, please check there before voting. Follow the guidelines as closely as possible.
- What RSGs were followed here?
RSG §20.2.3 The voting system is based on the understanding that the adding or updating the information is at least trying to make an honest attempt to improve the database. s that vandalize, remove, obfuscate, and otherwise make malicious and damaging updates should be marked 'Entirely Incorrect' AND an abuse report should be made to the Database Manager.
- Is this the case here?
RSG §20.2.6 Votes for an edited release submissions follow the same pattern as add release votes, apart from the lowest vote, 'Entirely Incorrect Edit', which is for edits that are totally wrong. This vote may revert the edit, depending on how others have voted, therefore rejecting the edit in its entirety.
Entirely Incorrect Edit : Summary: For updates to the release, artist, or label data is totally incorrect, or so incomplete or badly entered as to be impossible to judge. How To Use: You believe there is nothing that can be 'rescued' from the edit. If the edit contains correct information and can be improved and made more correct by editing, do not use this vote, use 'Needs Major Changes' instead. You must give a good justification in the submission comments for using this vote. An edit that is voted as 'Entirely Incorrect' will be automatically reverted to the previous version. Subsequent 'Entirely Incorrect' votes will not cause any more reversions. If you need to undo an 'Entirely Incorrect' reversion, please revert / edit it manually.
- The justification wasn't RSGs but one staff's opinion, ignoring another's!
also seppuku

Sorry, count me out on this one. While my personal preference would be very strongly in favor of the original alphabet in general, there seems to be a clear opinion from nik and, moreover, a looooong history of this debate that I'm too noob to master enough for a careful vote either way without hours of forum digging.

ratel69
ratel69 20 minutes ago
Sorry, count me out on this one.

Ditto. Same view. Also don't know anything about the artists concerned.

See previous points on your other thread here:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/724351

And yes, the RSG is contradictory. Welcome to the ride.

ccj
See previous points on your other thread here:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/724351

And yes, the RSG is contradictory. Welcome to the ride.

You are probably reffering in these 2 RSGs:
RSG §2.12.3 This RSG stars with an If and in this case more than 4 times Greek releases states otherwise.
RSG §2.12.4 I think I did that.. "discussed and reasonably resolve" them "in the help forums" Also I took into "into the artists popularity in different countries" and "how the majority of releases indicate their name"
Now if you stand at the last point "easiest for all s of Discogs" please see: RSG §1.8.1 "The default language of Discogs is English. However, Discogs s Unicode and allows releases in any language and character set. Releases must be submitted in the language used on them, they should not be translated or transliterated. " I posted all the according RSGs in the start of this thread, please read them.
Do they still contradict?

ultimathulerecords I respect it if you don't want to involve, but IMHO this is bigger that a simple swap. We are talking about CIP after following RSGs and voted correct..!
But, I understand if you don't have the time..
Anyways, thank you for your time.

Look, it's pretty simply really.

The rules you quote discuss primarily how to enter new data into the database. When data already exist in the database (as in this case), things are heavily weighted towards what exists, and there has to be a compelling reason to change something like a PAN.

• If this artist was not yet in the database, it would probably be appropriate to enter their name in Greek script for the PAN (as per RSG §1.8.1).
• However, this artist is already in the database with an entirely valid PAN (his name does appear in Latin script on some releases).
• We do not swap PANs or other data for reasons of preference (as in this case); only when existing data are incorrect. That is not the case here.
• It is absolutely possible to present this artist's name as it appears on releases (RSG §2.1.2) by using the ANV function linked to the existing PAN.
• There is therefore no clear need ([as per RSG §2.12.1) to use the last resort of creating a new PAN, as the existing PAN is valid, and data can be entered as on release by using ANVs. This method fulfils all criteria for correct submission.

The quote you keep referring to as for your position – 'you are welcome to continue discussing the need for change in the forums at this time' – merely says that you can discuss this issue in the forum. It does not provide for changing any data. You have now discussed this at length on this thread, and community consensus was overwhelmingly that the PAN for this artist should remain as it is.

Having discussed the need for change as suggested by the management, and having reached a strong community consensus, the sensible approach would be to accept that and move on to improving other parts of the database. Continuing to make edits based on your preference and which are opposed to that community consensus is incorrect, and those EI votes are therefore appropriate (if perhaps a bit harsh).

> ... blurry parts such as «last resort» and «clear need to do it» Why these expressions exist at all? ... Why not to use the word majority?

Because the guideline does not mean majority. It means a clear need to make a change, for reasons of eliminating incorrect data, when there are no other means to achieve this. As explained above, that is not the case here. (I find «last resort» and «clear need to do it» perfectly clear. Perhaps because I'm a native English speaker. I think there are translations of at least parts of the guidelines, but full and accurate translations of teh guidelines would certainly be a help.)

The guidelines are good but imperfect, and can certainly be improved in many respects. But that does not change the fact that this case has been discussed and clearly resolved by community consensus, based on the guidelines.

andrenafulva
We do not swap PANs or other data for reasons of preference (as in this case); only when existing data are incorrect

There are cases where nik has agreed on swaps as such!

andrenafulva
There is therefore no clear need

4 times more Greek releases indicate no need?

andrenafulva
merely says that you can discuss this issue in the forum. It does not provide for changing any data

If we are serious here we will agree that this means discussion in order to take action, otherwise "discussion for discussion is pointless and insulting" right?

andrenafulva
the PAN for this artist should remain as it is.

Agreed. This PAN for this artist. If you notices I got multiple EI vote and CIP for another PAN + artist that was voted YES, [because of the previews].

andrenafulva
the sensible approach would be to accept that and move on to improving other parts of the database.

I did, Πυξ Λαξ was something different!

ant0nis
There are cases where nik has agreed on swaps as such!

For reasons of preference? Really?

ant0nis
4 times more Greek releases indicate no need?

No. A preference, if there were no existing PAN, but no need to change an existing PAN.

ant0nis
If we are serious here we will agree that this means discussion in order to take action

Discussion in order to take action if appropriate. In this case it was clearly established that such action was not appropriate.

ant0nis
for another PAN + artist that was voted YES,

A vote only expresses the view of one individual. Not everyone who votes is fully aware of the guidelines, although they should be. I frequently come across submissions which have been voted correct but are clearly incorrect. One correct vote doesn't mean that the guidelines are being followed. Perhaps you could invite the person who gave that vote to this thread.

andrenafulva
For reasons of preference? Really?

Since I got multiple EI and 2 times CIP nik opinion is heavier than RSGs. That question should be addressed to nik, not to me.

andrenafulva
No. A preference, if there were no existing PAN, but no need to change an existing PAN

This is exactly why I wrote about blurry spots..

andrenafulva
Discussion in order to take action if appropriate. In this case it was clearly established that such action was not appropriate.

This managements opinion came after nik's opinion!

andrenafulva
Perhaps you could invite the person who gave that vote to this thread.

I did!

Pick your battles, this is one you won't win because there is a small group of who will block any of these types of things tooth and nail. We feel you on this one, it is most annoying that PANs are not in original language, even our most famous orchestra is wrongly in database (Metropole Orchestra, should be Metropole Orkest), but this is the way it is here. A US site, though it seems they are the minority. The site lives when western Europe wakes up until they go to sleep, site slows down to a crawl during US daytime....

I am speechless with the tolerated behaviour.. On one hand: multiple ENTIRELY INCORRECT, 2 TIMES in CIP and, REVERT because I followed RSGs and on the other an.. experienced with voting rights that vote EI and 1/5

avalon67
There was a girl on the UK version of Big Brother several years ago who, when referring tothe participants sexual relations, would say 'stuff'.

So are we proposing that ***** is Sex?
I'm sure he would agree......

..making fun of me [because of orthographic error] + a staff member [Database Manager] publicly!
I don't know.. Maybe it's me that I cannot fully understand how Discogs works.

^^ +1
Discogs for US and latin alphabetic countries or for world wide open mind? This is the first point to guide the guidelines.

andrenafulva
Look, it's pretty simply really.

The rules you quote discuss primarily how to enter new data into the database. When data already exist in the database (as in this case), things are heavily weighted towards what exists, and there has to be a compelling reason to change something like a PAN.

If this is the correct interpretation, the problems indeed can be really resolved very simply. syke has described it in the clearest way:

syke
if the first entry is incorrect and not used on releases, it's a case of clear need to rename the PAN and then a PAN change is obviously fine.

(see here)

syke
first entry having a latin translation used = 100% of releases in the database use the latin version. easy as that.

syke

the name that appears on the first release entered. That is the correct PAN. period.
[...]
obviously, if a PAN is incorrect (= not used on a release) it should be changed or proven to be incorrect because of a spelling mistake or a printing mistake then yes. A (correct) translation of a name can never be an incorrect PAn if it appears on releases.

(see here)

A completely wrong and inappropriate approach (to my mind), but if this is a correct interpretation of Niks's ideas and wishes, the staff/management should finally have the courage to state it explicitly in the Guidelines (and eliminate the contradicting rules). It would really be easy and this unacceptable and unnecessary confusion would stop.

jansenENjanssen
Metropole Orchestra, should be Metropole Orkest

I note the logo on the Profile page. This looks like a case for "Metropole Orkest" to be noted in the Profile as the correct name.

ant0nis
Maybe it's me that I cannot fully understand how Discogs works.

Perhaps the way to view it is to think about how Discogs came about. It was originally a database for electronic music and the database structure has been built upon repeatedly over the years to accommodate new features. This does mean that some intuitively simple changes can be damaging because the original programmers hadn't envisaged or taken into the consequences of additional languages, scripts, or even the wish to rename things like PANs. If I recall correctly when a PAN is created with incorrect capitalisation it still cannot be put right.
May I ask a staff member to comment in this discussion and clarify what the concerns might be from a management, development and programming perspective? nik , would you do this or could you ask another staff member to do it?

Again OMHO I suggest modyfing RSG §2.12.1
From: Swapping about primary artist names should only be done as a last resort, after discussion and a clear need to do it.
To: Swapping about primary artist names should only when majority of releases is in favor, after discussion and voting procedure in forums.

And if management doesn't like this at all, this and the rest of the according RSGs may be removed also. Because as it it, the first and last as it prooves entry of PAN in the DB is 100% an action of chance!
That way maaaaany fights and misunderstandings will be avoided!

Clogwhistle
the original programmers hadn't envisaged or taken into the consequences of additional languages, scripts, or even the wish to rename things like PANs

I agree with this, but since Discogs is currently translates in other languages also a new perspective has arose. We need to take into consideration situations as such.. and not to act with revenge........! [2 times CIP, damaged average etc.etc.] This is not mutual respect and understanding or even willing to solve a problem!

Clogwhistle
It was originally a database for electronic music and the database structure has been built upon repeatedly over the years to accommodate new features. This does mean that some intuitively simple changes can be damaging because the original programmers hadn't envisaged or taken into the consequences of additional languages, scripts, or even the wish to rename things like PANs.

A healthy company adapts to the changing environment of it's growth, they may not have seen this coming back then, but it is an issue now (has been for a while from the looks of things), and denying it (ostrich syndrome) is not going to make the problem go away. When you have PANs with nearly all entries ANVed except a few because this is a "US site", it loses credibility as an accurate database.

Clogwhistle
I note the logo on the Profile page. This looks like a case for "Metropole Orkest" to be noted in the Profile as the correct name.

Btw, it was founded back in 1945 as Metropole Orkest, it is still officially called Metropole Orkest, but that seems inconsequential here.

Clogwhistle
Perhaps the way to view it is to think about how Discogs came about. It was originally a database for electronic music and the database structure has been built upon repeatedly over the years to accommodate new features.

I'm not sure that's a fair excuse anymore as it's been wideranging since 2004 or so - so a dozen or so years. The database I signed up to in 2003 is no longer recognisable both above and below the surface. I'm very sympathetic to the idea that artists should be entered here under their real names, not just an Americanised/Anglo version of it simply because that was what was first added, even if the Anglo version is on more releases.

Opdiner
I'm very sympathetic to the idea that artists should be entered here under their real names, not just an Americanised/Anglo version of it

+1 to that.

no. this was already discussed in another thread where i shared my opinion, and nik shared his, and as i advised you there you are being foolish by not following his recommendation.
don't ping me again.

PabloPlato
don't ping me again.

I did it in order to be objective and not to ping just s that I believed that would agree..

PabloPlato
being foolish by not following his recommendation

Also if you say fool someone that follows RSGs + voting procedures, then yes I am.
What you say as "recommendation" nik wrote it as opinion. If opinions [even nik's] are above RSGs and generate in other threads. Then a new RSG about it should be added!
Anyways, thank you for sharing your opinion and I am sorry for the disturbance... it won't happen again.

Opdiner
I'm not sure that's a fair excuse anymore as it's been wideranging since 2004 or so - so a dozen or so years.

Sure; but I was trying to get the idea over of bolting more and more things onto a simple framework and this process resulting in a clunky, cumbersome framework.

Opdiner
I'm very sympathetic to the idea that artists should be entered here under their real names

+1. I guess the thing I'm hoping for is a statement from the Staff on the lines of "This is how it can / should be done..."

Clogwhistle
Sure; but I was trying to get the idea over of bolting more and more things onto a simple framework and this process resulting in a clunky, cumbersome framework.

Oh right, I get you now. Yes I agree - the whole LNV issue seems to be because we are stuck on a frame that doesn't allow such to be easily adapted. Divorcing cat #s from labels too.

ant0nis
We are talking about CIP after following RSGs and voted correct..!

This is the only issue i am going to address, since PAN swaps thing should be "resolved" by now.

You opened a forum discussion asking for a PAN swap, it seems you had a to do that swap, but it also seems you filled an SR and got a "keep discussing" response, later nik did made a comment on similar thread regarding the type of swaps you were/are requesting (even if that response was a bit contradictory to some he did 2 years ago), you then ignore those comments and follow trough with it anyway, the entirely incorrect votes you received are on you.

I received a response to my Request. ant0nis, you were voted on to CIP but would likely be there now even if you hadn't been. Management made a decision. You ignored it and did a mass edit and a PAN swap anyway. The response I received made clear edits you made to change artist PAN(s) unilaterally all need to be reverted. Really, I think we need to check all of your recent edits to make sure there are no other PAN changes there. I haven't done it and won't have time to.

Management has been dead set against PAN swaps for years. Some of us tried to warn you about where you were headed. Your argued and argued but wouldn't listen. You being on CIP is your own doing.

ant0nis
Πυξ Λαξ to Pyx-Lax ignoring the fact that there was a response also from staff or that this swap was voted for YES

Management did NOT this. Your vote in favor was 2-1 and flew in the face of the Guidelines and a management decision against PAN swaps. I have not cast a single vote until now, but I will finish the process of reverting this one.

ant0nis
IMHO this is bigger that a simple swap

Here we agree. It is. Management made a ruling. You ignored it. You keep saying "RSGs" but your interpretation is not shared by management/staff. Once again, nik wrote those Guidelines and he said no, clearly and resoundingly. How can you be surprised by this result?

Clogwhistle
I was trying to get the idea over of bolting more and more things onto a simple framework and this process resulting in a clunky, cumbersome framework.

But swapping PANs to another should have not affect on this though, nothing needs reprogramming, nothing technical, just a case of editing releases. And a guidelines tweak,

This may be of your interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias#English-speaking_editors_from_Anglophone_countries_dominate

This is in essence the same problem being discussed right now: The site is in English, populated by a (visible) majority of English speakers and presenting a barrier of entry to non English speakers. Therefore, people see no problem with the English transliteration of foreign names and on top of that are naturally averse to change. Problem is, there's a considerable amount of people who understand other languages and want them properly represented, and this often means relatively minor changes such as different letter in the lating script (thousands of artist like the accent, by example).

This could be easily solved by, say, the staff actually doing some development and creating a special box where people can add transliterated ANVs that easily pop up in when searching a name in either language.

andrenafulva
and community consensus was overwhelmingly that the PAN for this artist should remain as it is.

It wasn't. Tables only turned when nik appeared, which of course would have that effect as people always flock to authority. Even if that authority is just some random office employee.

jansenENjanssen
Pick your battles, this is one you won't win because there is a small group of who will block any of these types of things tooth and nail

And yes, this is a problem. There's too many people on this forum who generally back each other up and revenge vote on anyone who disagrees. Everyone wants the database to be how they want it to, which arguably it's how a consensus leadership should be. However in practice it's a never ending mob.

ant0nis
I am speechless with the tolerated behaviour.

The staff are awful at moderating the s. You concern is as old as discogs. Just to give you an idea: the site is 10 years old the community guidelines that moderate the forums aren't even two - And only take care of flat out flamewars, which means the vitriolic ive-aggressiveness everyone deals with is ignored. We used to have used to have actual trolls that outright provoked people so they could report them when they lashed out, and threads entirely dedicated to shaming other s and mobbing them. That thread lasted what, 6 years?

Akroatis
Niks's ideas and wishes, the staff/management should finally have the courage to state it explicitly in the Guidelines

I'd value Diognes' and other staff ' ideas more than Nik, by virtue of nik being almost a non-entity in recent years.

Not to mention that for a site that publicly paints itself as being built by the community coming in to stop what was going to be at the time a clear consensus on changing the PAN was rather incongruous.

jansenENjanssen
A healthy company adapts to the changing environment of it's growth, they may not have seen this coming back then, but it is an issue now (has been for a while from the looks of things)

I agree completely.

Fauni-Gena
The response I received made clear edits you made to change artist PAN(s) unilaterally all need to be reverted.

I honestly don't trust your words. Can you post the response you received?

Erit_Invictus
I honestly don't trust your words. Can you post the response you received?

No, that would definitely not be appropriate. Feel free to management yourself if you like. The response I received was from Diognes_The_Fox. He'll confirm it. Oh, and thank you so very much for calling me a liar. I hope management notes that as well.

Personally I like the "The Primary Artist Name should be the most relevant version of the Artists Name" guideline. It allows us to take various things into . I don't think the PAN should be chosen based on the alphabet and nationality alone.

I do agree though that PAN swaps shouldn't be so hard to do. I find it really hard to understand why some s insist that having basically a one-off variation as PAN (whether it's in Latin or non-Latin alphabet) is somehow better or -friendlier than another variation with 100+ entries. Why we cannot keep some common sense with us? The guidelines can be stretched, and even broken if it's for the benefit of the database and its s.

Clearly there are currently two sides battling each other in every single thread, and IMO both sides are being illogically unreasonable and rigid.

And when we have a ruling from the staff, it's good to follow the ruling at least for the time being, but it's not forbidden to continue the discussion - of course preferably in an appropriate manner without yelling, or insults. But in the end, sometimes you have to accept that things here don't always go your way.

jansenENjanssen
But swapping PANs to another should have not affect on this though, nothing needs reprogramming, nothing technical, just a case of editing releases.

I believe that this is a scenario that we are trying to avoid. In this thread https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/724351 there appear to be 203 releases involved (see the first post). It would be neat if there was a one-step fix that automatically percolated through the database, but doing 203 edits is inviting problems.
And if we were to extend PAN swapping to an Artist like Evangelos Papathanassiou - then we'd be talking hundreds, if not thousands of edits.

Fauni-Gena
Your vote in favour was 2-1

Where did you saw this? Yes: 7 No: 1 and this one is not a strong one.. [-So, should I count you vote to "yes"? -If you like … it doesn't matter. I don't see any opposition …] It was a clear YES situation!

Fauni-Gena
I will finish the process of reverting this one.

Don' t talk like you are doing me a favour.. You are strongly against from the start without any RSGs to fight only nik saying.

Erit_Invictus
This could be easily solved by, say, the staff actually doing some development and creating a special box where people can add transliterated ANVs that easily pop up in when searching a name in either language.

This is already happening, by placing "Also listed as:" variations in profiles.

Erit_Invictus
However in practice it's a never ending mob.

On that one I agree! There are people who disagree but afraid to risk their profile as I did! My profile now is completely destroyed for a nik's OPINION not an RSG, and I say again
If you want this to be standard, change the RSGs because otherwise all submitters should search for nik's opinions in forums instead of RSGs... On top of that nik does not answer!!!!
This has become at least a parody.

Erit_Invictus
I honestly don't trust your words. Can you post the response you received?

I too, would like to see that post! You elaborated my post with your way.. maybe some thing happen twice.

Fauni-Gena
No, that would definitely not be appropriate. Feel free to management yourself if you like. The response I received was from Diognes_The_Fox. He'll confirm it. Oh, and thank you so very much for calling me a liar. I hope management notes that as well.

Before that he has to deal with this:

avalon67
There was a girl on the UK version of Big Brother several years ago who, when referring tothe participants sexual relations, would say 'stuff'.

So are we proposing that ***** is Sex?
I'm sure he would agree......

So, if I got this right..

ant0nis
So are we proposing that ***** is Sex?

That was a silly joke with no ill intent and it was more directed at Fox than you, people make typos all the time i once even left a to a customer saying "A pleasure to deal high" when intended on saying "with".

auboisdormant
IMO both sides are being illogically unreasonable and rigid.

auboisdormant I am following RSGs! Is this ilogical????

Clogwhistle
I believe that this is a scenario that we are trying to avoid. In this thread https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/724351 there appear to be 203 releases involved (see the first post). It would be neat if there was a one-step fix that automatically percolated through the database, but doing 203 edits is inviting problems.
And if we were to extend PAN swapping to an Artist like Vangelis who has recorded under his Greek name in the past - see Evangelos Papathanassiou - then we'd be talking hundreds, if not thousands of edits.

But I did a perfect swap witha perfect profile that is reverted!!!!

phallancz
You opened a forum discussion asking for a PAN swap, it seems you had a to do that swap, but it also seems you filled an SR and got a "keep discussing" response, later nik did made a comment on similar thread regarding the type of swaps you were/are requesting (even if that response was a bit contradictory to some he did 2 years ago), you then ignore those comments and follow trough with it anyway, the entirely incorrect votes you received are on you.

I'm fairly certain that starting even more such threads after niks comments didn't help either

auboisdormant
Personally I like the "The Primary Artist Name should be the most relevant version of the Artists Name" guideline. It allows us to take various things into . I don't think the PAN should be chosen based on the alphabet and nationality alone.

Agreed. But...

ratel69
Sorry, count me out on this one. While my personal preference would be very strongly in favor of the original alphabet in general, there seems to be a clear opinion from nik...

This. I the Greek PAN in this case, but management has spoken. I disagree with the ruling, but it's just not worth fighting about anymore.

ant0nis
Yes: 7 No: 1

As I said in the previous thread it doesn't matter if it is 107-1. Management disallowed PAN swaps.

ant0nis
I am following RSGs

No, you aren't. The man who wrote the Guidelines explained what he meant. This is a claim you keep repeating and you may even believe it but it simply isn't true.

ant0nis
Don' t talk like you are doing me a favour..

Oh, I know I am doing you no favors at all. I probably added nearly 100 Entirely Incorrect votes to your total since that is the fastest way to revert and involves no manual editing.

syke
I'm fairly certain that starting even more such threads after niks comments didn't help either

Probably not.

ant0nis
But I did a perfect swap witha perfect profile that is reverted!!!!

That profile violated the Guidelines in so many ways: photos not of the band, hype, extremely long, etc... Nothing perfect at all and everything in the swap was incorrect. We, as in those of us who opposed the swaps, tried to warn you of that. We really did.

phallancz
That was a silly joke with no ill intent and it was more directed at Fox than you, people make typos all the time i once even left a to a customer saying "A pleasure to deal high" when intended on saying "with".

Obviously I agree with you completely but in fairness to ant0nis this may be where a language barrier comes into play. I starting public school as a young child in the U.S. with a terribly strong accent and a habit of slipping back into my mother tongue and the teasing I took. I don't blame anyone for not getting the nuances and the humor in a second or third language.

auboisdormant
And when we have a ruling from the staff, it's good to follow the ruling at least for the time being, but it's not forbidden to continue the discussion - of course preferably in an appropriate manner without yelling, or insults. But in the end, sometimes you have to accept that things here don't always go your way.

This part of what you wrote I fully agree with. As far as PAN swaps go, I understand why the aversion to them is so strong. I also get why some people feel strongly ing the native language of the artists. In the end we do need to follow some sort of consistent method for entering artists into the database. Ideally we should eventually have fields for more than one language per artist. That would be the right solution.

Erit_Invictus
You reap what you sow. I've read you for years now. Your behavior is deplorable at best.

Uh huh. I don't attack you in the forums. I believe there's a Guideline about that.

Erit_Invictus
What if I told you that the entire point of this discussion is that management is wrong.

What if I told you that Discogs is private property and the owner(s) and their chosent management have the right to do whatever they want with their property?

You know, we used to have a self-described group of "Discogs rebels." Funny, I don't see them on the site any more. I wonder what happened. OK, no I don't.

The revert is done. I didn't finish it so a huge thanks to everyone who helped.

phallancz
You opened a forum discussion asking for a PAN swap, it seems you had a to do that swap, but it also seems you filled an SR and got a "keep discussing" response, later nik did made a comment on similar thread regarding the type of swaps you were/are requesting (even if that response was a bit contradictory to some he did 2 years ago), you then ignore those comments and follow trough with it anyway, the entirely incorrect votes you received are on you.

I respected nik's opinion in that specific thread! If nik wants to generate in all swaps [even the ones that are voted thoroughly: YES] then RSGs ought to be change!

Fauni-Gena
As I said in the previous thread it doesn't matter if it is 107-1. Management disallowed PAN swaps.

So all submitters from now on should read forums and search for nik's opinion! Not RSGs. Right?
Also I am sure now that you like that behaviour very much after all you have stated many times that discogs is not about Democracy. It's ok.. I will always have a Democratic point of view, even if you don't.

Fauni-Gena
No, you aren't. The man who wrote the Guidelines explained what he meant. This is a claim you keep repeating and you may even believe it but it simply isn't true.

If you call me a liar, you better bring on FACTS..

Fauni-Gena
everything in the swap was incorrect

Your point of view about truth and lie is unique!

Fauni-Gena
What if I told you that Discogs is private property and the owner(s) and their chosent management have the right to do whatever they want with their property?

I am aware of that. However, it would be more important to say that Discogs is a business which uses the database as a point of attraction. (And perhaps ad revenue, but I have no idea how profitable a database as big as discogs could be compared to the amount of ads and visits it could have)

If your selling point is the database, you should ensure it's up to what you claim it is - And this is somethings Discogs does. Doesn't meant you can do whatever and it's immediately correct. Nik's opinion was a step in the wrong direction.

ant0nis
So all submitters from now on should read forums and search for nik's opinion! Not RSGs. Right?

Not at all. You brought the issue to the forum and you got an answer from management. You should have respected that.

ant0nis
Also I am sure now that you like that behaviour very much after all you have stated many times that discogs is not about Democracy. It's ok.

I am all for democracy in government. As a business owner I am not for it at all in private business. I am all for the owner of property having the right to do whatever they want within reason with that property.

ant0nis
If you call me a liar, you better bring on FACTS..

This demonstrates what I said about language barriers. I DID NOT call you a liar. I am NOT saying that at all. I said you believed what you were saying. What I accused you of was misunderstanding how things work on Discogs.

ant0nis
Your point of view about truth and lie is unique!

No, it's the same as everyone else's. It's probably the same as yours. Once again, I think a language barrier may the issue here. Sadly, I can respond in four languages but Greek is not one of them.

Erit_Invictus
This could be easily solved by, say, the staff actually doing some development and creating a special box where people can add transliterated ANVs that easily pop up in when searching a name in either language.

the search function already works in that fashion.

PabloPlato
the search function already works in that fashion.

Up to a point. Wouldn't cover the case where the artist is known by it's transliteration to westerners but has no translitared ANVs. I sometimes look up for obscure artist from Japan and Russia and have problems like these.

ant0nis
I respected nik's opinion in that specific thread! If nik wants to generate in all swaps [even the ones that are voted thoroughly: YES] then RSGs ought to be change!

They are not really opinions but like like directives (or in a harsher tone orders) and when they are not followed we suffer the consequences, you are more concern with the appearance of the data than the data itself, discogs catalogs and archives audio releases it was not created to preserve/promote different writing systems, but it allows s from different parts of the world to record, preserve, archive, promote their rich cultural music, make your greek artists profiles and styles of music accurate, that is what discogs should be about, IMO.

Fauni-Gena
What if I told you that Discogs is private property and the owner(s) and their chosent management have the right to do whatever they want with their property?

I would answer that it is at least rude to treat people that have contributed to your property and pay you fees with such a manner.

phallancz
They are not really opinions but like like directives (or in a harsher tone orders) and when they are not followed we suffer the consequences, you are more concern with the appearance of the data than the data itself, discogs catalogs and archives audio releases it was not created to preserve/promote different writing systems, but it allows s from different parts of the world to record, preserve, archive, promote their rich cultural music, make your greek artists profiles and styles of music accurate, that is what discogs should be about, IMO.

Oh my! I think you and I are in 100% agreement, at least about what you wrote here. If you were local I'd offer you a drink :D

Seriously, last night I worked on adding data to a release by Ha'Dudaim. Would the database be better if the PAN was הדודאים? Would it serve more people? Would more people find out about their music? I seriously doubt it. The majority of Israelis can handle English reasonably well. How much of t he rest of the world reads Hebrew?

Fauni-Gena
Oh my! I think you and I are in 100% agreement, at least about what you wrote here. If you were local I'd offer you a drink :D

:( can we please go back to trying to kill each other ;)

Had a couple of pings from this thread. Anything NEW happening?

AFAICT it's resolved in the sense that the mass edit was reverted. Are there still hard feelings and disagreements? It seems so but I don't know how to fix that. Data is much easier to deal with than people sometimes.

Fauni-Gena
Not at all. You brought the issue to the forum and you got an answer from management. You should have respected that.

Once again you avoid questions. Yes I DID saw what niks wrote, but you are trying to say that if someone else had done the swap [that he hadn't saw it] everything would be ok?
But one the other hand, what am I saying? You were the first to generate this to other threads....! You would be there for sure to scare/threat with EI + "inform" him of nik's opinion...

Fauni-Gena
I think a language barrier may the issue here

No it is not..[the language..] Because even at this point you don't have any RSG to back your actions.

Fauni-Gena
Data is much easier to deal with than people sometimes.

That should worry you...!

Clogwhistle
but doing 203 edits is inviting problems.

It never stopped a lot of other profiles being changed from one to another. We have searched many discussions, major labels have been moved involving 1000s of releases, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky an examples where over 10,000 were moved. It really should never be an excuse not to do these things. We also commented in similar discussions about PAN changes, the mass edits we took part in we fixed a lot of other things that needed fixing along the way that would otherwise have remained incorrect indefinitely, we only see these things as positive for a database like this.

Erit_Invictus
There's too many people on this forum who generally back each other up and revenge vote on anyone who disagrees. Everyone wants the database to be how they want it to, which arguably it's how a consensus leadership should be. However in practice it's a never ending mob.

It is strange how we took part in quite a few PAN change discussions either initiated by ourselves or others where these were Latin forms of a name, no problems, everyone agreed and process done. None of the that so vehemently complained on the non-Latin PAN discussions made a peep on those, though in practice the exact same thing, choosing a PAN that reflected the majority of releases. As soon as a non-Latin PAN discussion comes along (and even though most in the discussion agree with the PAN change), this little group comes in and does their utmost to stop it, with the same rhetoric each time which they can only back up because Nik said so, not even considering the logic of what is being discussed, stick rigidly to an outdated and misinterpreted guideline. No room for discussion. And it is not doing the database any good when a small group has the final say over such big decisions.

Fauni-Gena
How much of t he rest of the world reads Hebrew?

You could turn that around and ask How much of the rest of the world reads English? Apart from the millions that can neither read nor write, those that can read, the majority is not English. More people read Spanish and Chinese than English for example.

brunorepublic
I disagree with the ruling, but it's just not worth fighting about anymore.

Every good fight is worth fighting! Giving up on this one won't stop these types of discussions coming up again and again in the future. When in the future you have PANs with 1000s of entries using the correct original language as ANV and a handful or even none at all in Latin form of the profile, there will be more that question this nonsense of not allowing PAN changes for those.

It makes no sense to any logical thinking person to have most entries under a PAN ANV'ed because some bright spark decided to enter a Latin PAN at one time that did not even appear on the release it was generated from (as is the case for a lot of these).

ant0nis
Because even at this point you don't have any RSG to back your actions.

Clearly I do. There is only one Guideline that deals explicitly with PAN swaps and it says not to do them as a last resort.

I'm done. Argue forever if you like but do it without me.

Fauni-Gena
As I said in the previous thread it doesn't matter if it is 107-1. Management disallowed PAN swaps.

Oh yes? https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/720386?page=2#7171611 see the last bit: "Only in extreme cases (maybe when there is 1 use of the PAN, and 100 of ANV language variations) should things be considered for changing". And by this last statement, we consider that discussions on this can be held and result in PAN changes when there are cases like this.

Fauni-Gena
last resort + nik

These are your argument from the start... Mine is RSGs!
Ok, don't argue with me. Argue with jansenENjanssen last msg above...

I really would like to know what is teo's [Discogs founder] opinion in this approach from the start!!

avalon67
Had a couple of pings from this thread. Anything NEW happening?

same old, same old

jansenENjanssen
Oh yes? https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/720386?page=2#7171611 see the last bit: "Only in extreme cases (maybe when there is 1 use of the PAN, and 100 of ANV language variations) should things be considered for changing". And by this last statement, we consider that discussions on this can be held and result in PAN changes when there are cases like this.

I was referring to the number of votes by s in a thread, not the number of credits. You are correct that it it was 107 credits to 1 that would not have been the case.

Fauni-Gena
You are correct that it it was 107 credits to 1 that would not have been the case.

How can you say this? This in not a last resort...!

jansenENjanssen
It never stopped a lot of other profiles being changed from one to another. We have searched many discussions

I think he meant doing 203 on a PAN that was a gray area, which is asking to get mobbed.

jansenENjanssen
this little group comes in and does their utmost to stop it, with the same rhetoric each time which they can only back up because Nik said so, not even considering the logic of what is being discussed, stick rigidly to an outdated and misinterpreted guideline. No room for discussion.

It's sort of disheartening. opinion was heading steadily towards the change until nik intervened.

jansenENjanssen
It makes no sense to any logical thinking person to have most entries under a PAN ANV'ed because some bright spark decided to enter a Latin PAN at one time that did not even appear on the release it was generated from

It's the same logic for genres like "latin" and other tags, which as a South American I can only see it as complete bullshit as there's simply no such genre, it's merely an anglo marketing term. And it's really annoying when people just put everything made by south americans as latin regardless of genre.

The Database has a very slight bias towards the way the anglo market interprets music. Since removing latin script transliteration inconveniences that slightly, it's harder to make it budge. But if we make enough noise someone will eventually listen.

Erit_Invictus
The Database has a very slight bias towards the way the anglo market interprets music.

I nominate this for the Understatement Of The Year award.

(inexplicable double post)

ant0nis
How can you say this? This in not a last resort...!

You misunderstood me again. If it was 107 credits to 1 that would be a last resort, as nik explained. Votes, OTOH, do not matter at all. You really should look at the language separator thread. Four pages, a vast majority against using = as a separator and management decided to use it anyway.

I very sincerely hope someday a few years from now Discogs' policy will be to main language of activity as the pertinent one, and that the database will be clean enough that there are no more urgent priorities.

Till then, if someone's bored and wants to move stuff about, I suggest heading to Brass & Military country, there's loads of pig shit to shovel over there.

brunorepublic
I nominate this for the Understatement Of The Year award.

I've considered making some serious noise from time to time. That genre is an eternal vex to me. Can't claim to have an accurate database if you let people use false genres

Fauni-Gena
If it was 107 credits to 1 that would be a last resort, as nik explained.

My question is not meant as provocation but as a way to find out something that is not really clear to me (and also not to others, I assume):

RSG §2.12.1 says:

Swapping about primary artist names should only be done as a last resort, after discussion and a clear need to do it.

[bold letters added by myself]

What is exactly the difference between "last resort" and "clear need"?

- "Clear need" obviously seems "clear necessity" (of course a completely vague and "unclear" term).
To my mind "clear necessity" could/should especially mean: When by the existing entry (in the database) rules of the guidelines are violated. But obviously there is no consensus about such an interpretation. Another case of a clear need could be an obvious typo in the entry of a PAN. (I assume for this example there is more consensus.)

- And "last resort" - to my mind - means that there is no other possibility (no other way, no other method) to realize (to put into practize) the thing that should/must be done because there is a clear need for doing (here: to change a name [= the writing of a name] because it is not regarded as appropriate*).

*[I avoid the term "correct" because one can argue that a name is written correctly even in the case that it is written (without typo) on only one release of e.g. 108.]

Your ( Fauni-Gena) interpretation of the seems to be different: For you the relation of the releases (107 credits [as AVNs] to 1 [as PAN]) is a matter of last resort. I would regard it as a matter that would have to be judged from the aspect of clear need.

In this (unrealistic) case of 107:1 you and I would come to the same result (that a PAN swap should happen respectively be permitted). So for this case the question about the is more theoretical. But nevertheless the issue exists: We have two phrases in RSG §2.12.1 which are necessarily used by all of us (who discuss about the problem with PAN swap), but it is not so clear what they mean and what is their mutual relation.

Erit_Invictus
I've considered making some serious noise from time to time. That genre is an eternal vex to me. Can't claim to have an accurate database if you let people use false genres

I feel the same about Pacific (and it was a battle with Nik to get even that - Hawaiian and Waiata are not styles I was told). Europe has countless regional styles listed and yet the whole Pacific region, from Alaska south, with tens of thousands of islands, is told to deal with one broad wash that means nothing.

Opdiner
Europe has countless regional styles listed and yet the whole Pacific region, from Alaska south, with tens of thousands of islands, is told to deal with one broad wash that means nothing.

I don't recall the genre tags being updated in years - and we went through two major revisions to the submission field!

I have at least a dozen regional folk genres, an electronic cumbia subgenre and two other genres I can't at the moment that I have to mention in the notes.

Not to mention that Tango in an on itself should be an umbrella genre. From Tango Ciudadano to guitar heavy turn of the (19th) century Tango, 40s Orchestral tango and Aznar's experiments. Not even Milonga is there which is by far the most popular argentine folk genre (and Tango comes from it to boot).

As this parody reaches to an end.. I feel the need to state some last thoughts:

● Since this DB shows an interest in other languages, IMHO it should also show the appropriate respect to these languages also! PANs are a good example. The capitalization rule is also wrong, because in Greek capital letters give different meaning in words or phrases. This is a little bit hard to be perceived by someone that has English as a native language, but that does not change the importance of the matter!

● I do not think that I did anything wrong with the Proposition for artist Pyx Lax ➪ Πυξ Λαξ because I followed rules, Democratic procedures like voting, open discussion etc. It would be 100% my fault if this was an RSG! Also I think that general.. opinions last resorts and clear needs are obstacles in the submitting process, I still try to understand what was their purpose there in the first place..

● I still think that the reaction was unjustified, extreme and unfair. Given the lack of RSGs to the EI votes, those that placed these votes referred generally to management decision, although the appropriate word is opinion I don't feel that what I did was for nothing because I believed it was the truth and the right thing to do according to the RSGs.

● It is true that this DB has an owner Values that it stands on! e.g. "We are all equally important parts of a successful team, sharing respect and open communication."

● "We are all equally important parts of a successful team, sharing respect and open communication." Do we? Because I think that there are many s that agree with me in this PAN situation, but many of them avoid to involve because they are afraid! Fear methods were present at these threads, usually by the same people and with the same behaviour. Not everyone are willing to sacrifice their long-year profiles and not everyone have the courage to stand for what they believe in as I do. I am not to blame them, but I blame those that with direct or indirect methods do not allows freedom of speech. It has been said that management "allowed" me to continue discussing!! Like I would ever ask anyone to talk.. Like freedom to discuss is not a given thing! Again I am ringing the bell to management about how tolerable are in these behaviours.

● Last but not least I want to truly thank all those who devoted time and effort in these threads in order to help! Even the ones that disagreed with me. To those that have no respect in general, the feelings are mutual.

Regards
antonis999 ➪ ant0nis from now on..

So much has been said here (and on the other thread, that started as one of many for a proposed PAN change, but deviated to a heated discussion on the larger issue at hand - see link on the 1st post), so I'll be brief.

I'll give you an example of the current situation regarding PANs that, IMO, speaks for a "real need".
Εύα Τσελίδου
It's a double profile of a Greek artist. The one with the name in Latin characters has been here longer. If you check the entries in both profiles, you'll see that in the vast majority the name of this artist is written in Greek. At some point, a who did not notice/check the Latin PAN added a release with the name in Greek, so a new artist entry was created. Both entries stayed.

If it weren't for a bunch of s here (myself included) who care about the accuracy of the database, these double profiles (for cases where the native language PAN is clearly the " most relevant" one) would be the norm, not an exception. Unfortunately, a bunch of s spend our time scanning the database every now and then in order to preserve PANs that are not popular at all. Sometimes, to lighten this burden, one of us finds the energy to bring a proposed PAN swap to the forums. Sometimes these threads are noticed and commented upon, sometimes not. The ones that do get noticed: sometimes the outcome is favorable, sometimes not. Lately, it seems the odds are against such actions in general.

For what it's worth, I believe that this won't go away (in spite of the current RSG, nik's recent ruling, or any other staff member's), because it is a real issue. I have been in Discogs long enough to know that when an issue is real, it always comes back knocking at our door, whether we like it or not.

For example... in the past, Discogs only allowed submissions of releases from the electronic genre. At some point s started adding non-electronic releases in the database, listing them (incorrectly) as electronic, since nothing else was allowed. It was a real issue and Discogs dealt with it eventually. Artist name variations were another real issue (anyone the short-lived AKA feature?), data entering in non-Latin character sets was another issue, unique releases was another real issue (for the newer : if two versions of a release were on the same label and had the same catalog number, yet other minor differences, we were not allowed to make two separate entries)... all these were real issues dealt with at some point. It's this harsh way up, towards an expanding, all-inclusive, truly international Discogs - do we want that?

kwulf
For what it's worth, I believe that this won't go away (in spite of the current RSG, nik's recent ruling, or any other staff member's), because it is a real issue. I have been in Discogs long enough to know that when an issue is real, it always comes back knocking at our door, whether we like it or not.

I fully agree kwulf. This seems to be problematic for a large part of the base and simply won't go away – it's one of these annually (or more) recurring issues (and I do think with good reason - there is hint of cultural imperialism here that irks more than a few non-Anglo submitters) and it will only get worse as the site tries to embrace a more global audience. In 2016 there is no reason that a search engine can't translate queries on the fly (in China Baidu's Chinese only map will take any English search term and give you an instant result in Chinese as an example). If we want to push towards being the global database (and Teo has said he wants exactly this), it may be time to take a serious look at how this is achieved.

I accept that in the interim the community has spoken (although I do think Nik's 'ruling' is overstated in its substance - they no longer have such authority we are told and indeed the community has overridden several of his words-from-above rulings in recent months and I'm sure more will be addressed) and the end result here is as it should be until such change is effected.

Opdiner
I'm very sympathetic to the idea that artists should be entered here under their real names, not just an Americanised/Anglo version of it

+1

jansenENjanssen
A healthy company adapts to the changing environment of it's growth, they may not have seen this coming back then, but it is an issue now (has been for a while from the looks of things), and denying it (ostrich syndrome) is not going to make the problem go away. When you have PANs with nearly all entries ANVed except a few because this is a "US site", it loses credibility as an accurate database

+1

Erit_Invictus
This is in essence the same problem being discussed right now: The site is in English, populated by a (visible) majority of English speakers and presenting a barrier of entry to non English speakers. Therefore, people see no problem with the English transliteration of foreign names and on top of that are naturally averse to change. Problem is, there's a considerable amount of people who understand other languages and want them properly represented, and this often means relatively minor changes such as different letter in the lating script (thousands of artist like the accent, by example).

This could be easily solved by, say, the staff actually doing some development and creating a special box where people can add transliterated ANVs that easily pop up in when searching a name in either language.

+1

auboisdormant
I do agree though that PAN swaps shouldn't be so hard to do. I find it really hard to understand why some s insist that having basically a one-off variation as PAN (whether it's in Latin or non-Latin alphabet) is somehow better or -friendlier than another variation with 100+ entries. Why we cannot keep some common sense with us?

+1

jansenENjanssen
When in the future you have PANs with 1000s of entries using the correct original language as ANV and a handful or even none at all in Latin form of the profile, there will be more that question this nonsense of not allowing PAN changes for those.

Indeed

Erit_Invictus
It's the same logic for genres like "latin" and other tags, which as a South American I can only see it as complete bullshit as there's simply no such genre, it's merely an anglo marketing term. And it's really annoying when people just put everything made by south americans as latin regardless of genre.

The Database has a very slight bias towards the way the anglo market interprets music. Since removing latin script transliteration inconveniences that slightly, it's harder to make it budge. But if we make enough noise someone will eventually listen.

Yes. And we should reasonably make positive proposals, that make sense, to move forward and continue to improve the DB. It comes withassessing the issues in a non-emotional way, stating the objectives we want to achieve as a correct, global, all-encoming sound database, and finding the best way to get there. I believe sound advice can be a to management to take good décisions. As I stated elsewhere, good and positive changes like allowing non-Latin scripts have been made in the past, there is no reason this should not continue.
I suggest all s interested in the issue on how to better integrate Artists and music using non-Latin scripts regroup in a Group, and work towards concrete proposals for positive changes here. We do really want to get more international releases submitted correctly on Discogs, as we do want it to be the most comprehansive tool available...

kwulf
If it weren't for a bunch of s here (myself included) who care about the accuracy of the database, these double profiles (for cases where the native language PAN is clearly the " most relevant" one) would be the norm, not an exception. Unfortunately, a bunch of s spend our time scanning the database every now and then in order to preserve PANs that are not popular at all. Sometimes, to lighten this burden, one of us finds the energy to bring a proposed PAN swap to the forums. Sometimes these threads are noticed and commented upon, sometimes not. The ones that do get noticed: sometimes the outcome is favorable, sometimes not. Lately, it seems the odds are against such actions in general.

For what it's worth, I believe that this won't go away (in spite of the current RSG, nik's recent ruling, or any other staff member's), because it is a real issue. I have been in Discogs long enough to know that when an issue is real, it always comes back knocking at our door, whether we like it or not.

Right on.

Opdiner
If we want to push towards being the global database (and Teo has said he wants exactly this), it may be time to take a serious look at how this is achieved.

tam89rds
I suggest all s interested in the issue on how to better integrate Artists and music using non-Latin scripts regroup in a Group, and work towards concrete proposals for positive changes here. We do really want to get more international releases submitted correctly on Discogs

Always open to good suggestions!

Group Non Latin script discussion has been created!

To whom it may concern..

There is one factor that has only recently occured to me and it may be fundamental to why the management has, in the past, been opposed to PAN swaps.
There are at least three ways to link to an Artist. Let's consider this unimportant Artist https://www.discogs.sie.com/artist/2151092-Robert-Andrews-2 and there is also [ a2151092 ] {again, without the spaces}.
Comments in Release Histories, Forum threads and PMs using these links will lead to a Do Not Use Profile or, even worse, result in 404 errors were such a PAN to be changed; and without a systematic process to manage these PAN swaps it is possible for critical discussions to be compromised.
Now, the problem is not insurmountable, but it seems to me that editing the submissions affected is only part of the solution. I don't know if it is currently possible to link backwards to identify where these links have been used in a database of over 9 000 000 Submissions, plus Forum threads, etc. but s are only able to edit a proportion of these: for example once a Forum thread is locked nobody but Staff can access it.
Alternatively, of course, such link usage can be viewed as not important enough, but we will need to be careful how we impose and manage "Do Not Use" PANs.

PS I have caught up with this thread https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/720807 so my points have already been discussed and dealt with.

ant0nis
Group Non Latin script discussion has been created!

...or you could have ed this Group https://www.discogs.sie.com/group/425 "Non-Latin Characters Releases"

Nonetheless, I will add your Group to the Header at https://www.discogs.sie.com/group/2418 .

Clogwhistle
we will need to be careful how we impose and manage "Do Not Use" PANs.

e.g. Πυξ Λαξ

Clogwhistle
you could have ed this Group https://www.discogs.sie.com/group/425

Yep I didn't aware of it but it won't hurt having 2 groups I will add it too!

ant0nis
ecause I think that there are many s that agree with me in this PAN situation, but many of them avoid to involve because they are afraid!

Yes, this is also a pervasive problem. Whenever I participate in drama I end up getting one or two PMs from other s that agree with me but abstained from participating because they often got revenge voted by other s.

This is a clear symptom that stems from the mobbing mentality that permeates the community.

Opdiner
I fully agree kwulf. This seems to be problematic for a large part of the base and simply won't go away – it's one of these annually (or more) recurring issues (and I do think with good reason - there is hint of cultural imperialism here that irks more than a few non-Anglo submitters) and it will only get worse as the site tries to embrace a more global audience.

I agree with the idea, but I disagree with the notion that this is due to cultural imperialism - Attitude like this strike me as an unintentional product of people's resistance to change.

Let's approach this from a general perspective: Bias. There's many s on Discogs has have strong bias towards a singular form of music - in most cases vinyl. Read on the September pledge thread and you'll see people arguing that digital release should not count towards the score and it's been historically argued that some forms of digital formats aren't truly music or that digital is a "cheap" format, on the same vein people have said CDs don't really matter and shouldn't be a priority for the database, and other heavily biased opinions regarding other formats. This extends to genres as people will generally dismiss the problems that some genres pose to the database as the genre simply not being worth archiving.

In the same way, there's also a bias towards the status quo and s who propose changes like these - People tend to assume the proponents are either dedicated fans with a bone to pick or artists trying to edit their own information (which is a different problem that will never go away), which leads to a lot of people always aggressively dismissing these kinds of threads. In fact, proposals for changing the RSGs are almost always received negatively - which is worrying considering the staff seems to be toying with the idea of actually allowing us to write the guidelines.

Add this to the fact people always tray to enact max punishment against perceived offenders of the status quo and you get a very tense situation. Enough for people to think the forums are problematic.

There's a perceived wrong in the database regarding scripts - it's been constantly brought up for years by different groups of people. Whether they were making good or bad proposals, the fact that there's something incongruous between what discogs claims it is and what it actually is. Until that is fixed, people will keep bringing issues like this up.

Clogwhistle
There is one factor that has only recently occured to me and it may be fundamental to why the management has, in the past, been opposed to PAN swaps.

I think that's inevitable as the site ages. Constant improvement will make older things harder to understand.

ant0nis
I think that there are many s that agree with me in this PAN situation, but many of them avoid to involve because they are afraid!

Completely agree. The discussions we started on the Japanese PAN changes, the way some reacted would have scared of most, especially newer like us, we even thought just to drop it because of the same constant barrage by a minority intent on not even considering a logical discussion on the issue. But then we don't scare so easily, so will be persevering with those, especially now that the issue is finally being picked up by more who can see the bigger picture here.

kwulf
So much has been said here (and on the other thread, that started as one of many for a proposed PAN change, but deviated to a heated discussion on the larger issue at hand - see link on the 1st post), so I'll be brief.

I'll give you an example of the current situation regarding PANs that, IMO, speaks for a "real need".
Eva Tselidou / Εύα Τσελίδου
It's a double profile of a Greek artist. The one with the name in Latin characters has been here longer. If you check the entries in both profiles, you'll see that in the vast majority the name of this artist is written in Greek. At some point, a who did not notice/check the Latin PAN added a release with the name in Greek, so a new artist entry was created. Both entries stayed.

If it weren't for a bunch of s here (myself included) who care about the accuracy of the database, these double profiles (for cases where the native language PAN is clearly the " most relevant" one) would be the norm, not an exception. Unfortunately, a bunch of s spend our time scanning the database every now and then in order to preserve PANs that are not popular at all. Sometimes, to lighten this burden, one of us finds the energy to bring a proposed PAN swap to the forums. Sometimes these threads are noticed and commented upon, sometimes not. The ones that do get noticed: sometimes the outcome is favorable, sometimes not. Lately, it seems the odds are against such actions in general.

For what it's worth, I believe that this won't go away (in spite of the current RSG, nik's recent ruling, or any other staff member's), because it is a real issue. I have been in Discogs long enough to know that when an issue is real, it always comes back knocking at our door, whether we like it or not.

For example... in the past, Discogs only allowed submissions of releases from the electronic genre. At some point s started adding non-electronic releases in the database, listing them (incorrectly) as electronic, since nothing else was allowed. It was a real issue and Discogs dealt with it eventually. Artist name variations were another real issue (anyone the short-lived AKA feature?), data entering in non-Latin character sets was another issue, unique releases was another real issue (for the newer : if two versions of a release were on the same label and had the same catalog number, yet other minor differences, we were not allowed to make two separate entries)... all these were real issues dealt with at some point. It's this harsh way up, towards an expanding, all-inclusive, truly international Discogs - do we want that?

Spot on kwulf. Couldn't be said better!