About Discogs' definition of a Box Set - "all media enclosed in extra packaging"

Can someone please explain the exact meaning of Discogs' definition of a Box Set:
"To note that all media are enclosed in extra packaging."

I suppose "all media" refers to the separate media items, meaning that each disc of a CD box set should be kept in a separate sleeve inside of the box for it to qualify as a box set?

The problem with this definition is that several releases that most s and people outside of Discogs would count as box sets - the releases may even refer to themselves as box sets - can't use the tag, as the packaging is in the form of a "book" or similar, with all discs immeditately accessible once opened. One example is Gary Numan - The Numa Years.

However, other releases that I certainly wouldn't regard as box sets may use the tag, such as cheap reissues of standard jewel case albums wrapped inside a slipcase, such as Pink Floyd - Is There Anybody Out There? (The Wall Live 1980-81). However, that would also mean that any jewel case or digipak etc CD that comes in an outer slipcase would qualify as a box set, so that simply can't be the meaning, right?

Mr-Love
I suppose "all media" refers to the separate media items, meaning that each disc of a CD box set should be kept in a separate sleeve inside of the box for it to qualify as a box set?

that's not how I interpret the guideline, but rather:
if all media (say, an LP and a 7" or a CD and a book) are packaged together into a box, it's a box set, no matter if the individual items have an extra wrapper or whatever inside the box:
Various - 16 Dance Party Smash Hits!
in other words: is there a box enveloping all content, then it's a box set.

Mr-Love
One example is ABBA - Thank You For The Music,......officially called a box set (there's also a sticker saying "box set").

I would go immideately for Box Set. It is even refered to as one by 'official' standards/sources.

marcelrecords
in other words: is there a box enveloping all content, then it's a box set.

That is my understanding too.

Also if the item is called a Long Box, IMO Box Set is obliged too use. Carpenters - From The Top Box Set as Long Box.

marcelrecords
is there a box enveloping all content, then it's a box set.

Indeed.

Mr-Love
CD that comes in an outer slipcase would qualify as a box set,

No, that's too far stretched. It's only a paper sleeve, not some sort of a box.

2, 3, n CD / LP / etc. in a box is a Box Set. What's the matter?

marcelrecords
is there a box enveloping all content, then it's a box set

Then what is a box? Apparently a thin slipcase is enough - see ABBA - Thank You For The Music, is that a box? Surely, that kind of sleeve is much more of a box than a thin slipcase?

Gorgyporgy
No, that's too far stretched. It's only a paper sleeve, not some sort of a box.

I agree, but exactly that is the case with Original Album Classics and thousands of other ones, which according the format list meets the requirements of a box set.

aforocha
2, 3, n CD / LP / etc. in a box is a Box Set. What's the matter?

The matter is that the guideline is flawed, as releases that aren't box sets may be tagged as such, but releases that even refer to themselves as box sets may not use the tag.
ABBA - Thank You For The Music - hardback tall book-like sleeve, that's officially called a box set - not tagged as Box Set, as the format list doesn't allow it (or does it)?

Imho the guideline/format description of "Box Set" needs to be updated - one key factor should be that the packaging should be hardback, i.e. a thin slipcase may never be enough. Also, if a release is officially referred to as a box set, it may be tagged as such, as long as it's hardback.

Gorgyporgy
No, that's too far stretched. It's only a paper sleeve, not some sort of a box.

A slipcase is a box - a box may be made of any material. Being housed in a box does not make the thing a set. For instance, an album in a slipcase is not a box set unless it includes other items to comprise a set.

The Tomahawk set "Eponymous To Anonymous" for instance is marketed as a box set and comprises of 3 (4) albums but the thing is paper thin and is a basically a 12" slipcase. A box does not need a lid and the term slipcase is just a sub category of box like Jack Russell is a type of dog.

Insisting on hard packaging would be a faux pas.

Mr-Love
Apparently a thin slipcase is enough - see Original Album Classics for example

No, IMO this has nothing to do with being a Box Set. If I judge only by the images (p.e. here: Blue Öyster Cult - Original Album Classics) it's an outer cartboard slipcase. Not a Box Set. So, I would consider this an incorrect Format.

Mr-Love
Then surely Pet Shop Boys - Bilingual is a box set too?

No. From the Notes: Clear jewel case with frosted front (inversed compared to the standard edition) in stickered outer carded sleeve. Again a slipcase.

Mr-Love
And what about hardback book-like packaging such as ABBA - Thank You For The Music, is that a box?

Definitely! Hard outer box, containing multiple carriers.

aforocha
What's the matter?

The matter is that Mr-Love isn't so sure about it as you apparently are. He opened a Topic, so other s can contribute in making this matter more comprehensible. And not only for him!

Mr-Love
as the format list doesn't allow it - or does it?

Yes it does. (Can someone do something about those terrible "- Name "ABBA" is not capitalized correctly. We usually require each word to start with a capital letter. Capitalization Guidelines."!). So that should be added.

Mr-Love
Imho the guideline/format description of "Box Set" needs to be updated - one key factor should be that the packaging should be hardback, i.e. a thin slipcase may never be enough. Also, if a release is officially referred to as a box set, it may be tagged as such, as long as it's hardback.

Agree, it's rather vague now.

Eviltoastman
A slipcase is a box

Is it? You see, the point is (and that's why Mr-Love initiate this Topic) it's all so vague. I see a box as something that has a hard outer wrapping, with a 'lid' or something like that. Only an extra paper sleeve doesn't qualify for me as Box Set. Difficult one.

aforocha
2, 3, n CD / LP / etc. in a box is a Box Set. What's the matter?

Precisely. Material is irrelevant so long as it can form a box and it contains a set (or is made to contain a set).

Eviltoastman
it contains a set

What is a set? Maybe that needs more definition?

A set of related items (ie: more than one), typically books or recordings, packaged together in a box and sold as a unit. The issue is that the term can be used when you compile the separate items yourself. For example, release 1 comes with the box to house the subsequent ten items.

An example of such a release us here:
Soundgarden - Black Hole Sun

Note two of staff were involved in amerge there and didn;t raise an eyebrow to the Boxed tag being used.

Here's the Tomahawk release I mentioned, if we consider material this is no longer a box set irrespective of it clearly being one and that it was actively marketed as a box set:
Tomahawk (6) - Eponymous To Anonymous

Also the claim that slipcases are made from paper is incorrect. They are made from the same stock material as "Cardboard Sleeves" a distinction we agreed on a few years back:
http://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/335978#3147722

Eviltoastman
A slipcase is a box - a box may be made of any material. Being housed in a box does not make the thing a set. For instance, an album in a slipcase is not a box set unless it includes other items to comprise a set.

So basically you mean, that Depeche Mode - The Best Of (Volume 1) - it's a standard widespine sleeve that contains 3 LPs and a 12" booklet - does the booklet make it a box set?

I'm sure many s think just like me and Gorgyporgy, that a box set is something that's made of something else than just standard rather thin cardboard.

Eviltoastman
it was actively marketed as a box set

As was ABBA - Thank You For The Music - surely it should be tagged as Box Set then?

Mr-Love
Pet Shop Boys - Bilingual is not a box set

Yes.

Mr-Love
Pet Shop Boys - Bilingual / Further Listening 1995–1997 is a box set

No.

Mr-Love
Depeche Mode - The Best Of (Volume 1) - it's a standard widespine sleeve that contains 3 LPs and a 12" booklet - does the booklet make it a box set?

A book is not a box. A slipcase is a box.

Mr-Love
As was ABBA - Thank You For The Music - surely it should be tagged as Box Set then?

If we consider the format list definition of Boxed:
"To note that all media are enclosed in extra packaging" then there are no impediments.
Also we do similar with "limited edition" and "maxi single", it would be rude to exclude this release. Do I think it's a box set? No.

Eviltoastman
A book is not a box. A slipcase is a box.

So what's the difference to Tomahawk (6) - Eponymous To Anonymous that you described as "paper thin and is a basically a 12" slipcase"?

If you don't you consider Erasure - Chorus (proper hardback box that needs to be opened to reveal contents - disc, booklet and some art cards)?

Eviltoastman
If we consider the format list definition of Boxed:
"To note that all media are enclosed in extra packaging" then there are no impediments.

Problem is there is no "extra packaging", it's just one and the same packaging for all discs and the booklet (which is one big reason for this topic).

For any jewel case CD in a slipcase you could say the slipcase is extra packaging though, and tag it as a box set.

Eviltoastman
we do similar with "limited edition" and "maxi single"

Exactly!

Mr-Love
For any jewel case CD in a slipcase you could say the slipcase is extra packaging though, and tag it as a box set.

So: Not Now Music issues). So, Box Set?

Eviltoastman
Do I think it's a box set? No.

But, http://www.abbasite.com/discography/album/thank-you-for-the-music/ marketed as such.

Gorgyporgy
So: The Manhattan Transfer - Chanson D'Amour (The Very Best Of The Manhattan Transfer) is to be considered a Box Set? Outer packing is a slipcase with the jewel case in it.

Well, as I mentioned above, I can't see how that would be against the guidelines, as all media is indeed "enclosed in extra packaging". This means the box set definition needs to be updated, and some clarification to what is meant by a "set" is needed as well. Because there are several different kinds of box sets, all valid:
- A compilation of previously released material, such as ABBA - The Albums.
- A deluxe edition of a new album, also including additional audio/video media, such as Depeche Mode - Sounds Of The Universe.
- A special edition of a new album, including just the album and some non-audio items i.e. booklet and art cards, such as Erasure - Chorus.

Also, releases that may currently not be tagged as box sets - even though they're known and marketed as such - as they're NOT "enclosed in extra packaging" (what ever that is supposed to mean), such as ABBA - Thank You For The Music, should be allowed the tag.

Then if someone could please explain what makes a cheap release like Pet Shop Boys - Bilingual / Further Listening 1995–1997 isn't (album + compilation in jewel case inside thin slipcase, that also houses an extra large booklet)? To me, neither is.

Mr-Love
So what's the difference to Tomahawk (6) - Eponymous To Anonymous that you described as "paper thin and is a basically a 12" slipcase"?

Are you suggesting a slipcase is a book? Sorry I'm really not following your "book" examples. They do not seem relevant to this discussion at all.

Mr-Love
If you don't you consider Pet Shop Boys - Bilingual / Further Listening 1995–1997 a box set (why not?)

There is no mention of a box or extra packaging there apart from a book. Again, a book is not a box. I don't own that item, the images are fairly poor so forgive me if I cannot see a box there or in the release notes, no "extra packaging" either.

Mr-Love
then what do you think about Erasure - Chorus (proper hardback box that needs to be opened to reveal contents - disc, booklet and some art cards)?

I'm humoring you here, that has a box so... What's your point?

Gorgyporgy
But

Please read the whole sentence that precedes the part you quoted.

Mr-Love
For any jewel case CD in a slipcase you could say the slipcase is extra packaging though, and tag it as a box set.

Not quite, the format list example shows multiple media and it is implied by the term "set". Also you must consider what a reasonable person might do.

Eviltoastman
Are you suggesting a slipcase is a book? Sorry I'm really not following your "book" examples. They do not seem relevant to this discussion at all.

It's you who started to write about a "set":

Eviltoastman
For instance, an album in a slipcase is not a box set unless it includes other items to comprise a set.

Then I'm wondering what makes something a set then? Is 1 CD together with 1 special booklet a set? According to

The Beatles - Let It Be

is a box set, and that includes just an LP and a book. What's the difference to Pet Shop Boys - Actually / Further Listening 1987–1988 (this one has better images) - a jewel case and an extra large booklet both kept in a slipcase?

Mr-Love, have you had a chance to look at : http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set ?

There are some interesting notions there...

xjoxjox
There are some interesting notions there...

Certainly! So, a Long Box is considered a Box Set? Like: Carpenters - Carpenters Gold - Greatest Hits?

Mr-Love
Or - does "all media" refer to all media items as one entity? This would mean that the ABBA box would qualify as a box set if it came with some additional packaging around the digibook, such as a slipcase

This is my reading, too

Mr-Love
Then what is a box? Apparently a thin slipcase is enough - see Original Album Classics for example - but how can a slipcase become a box just because it contains more than one album?

Nitzer Ebb - Catalogue i don't really have a Problem in seeing this as a box set...

xjoxjox
: http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set ?

^^^^ Comes in quite Handy...

Gorgyporgy
Certainly! So, a Long Box is considered a Box Set? Like: ABBA - Thank You For The Music or Carpenters - Carpenters Gold - Greatest Hits?

I'd say 'YES' to both!

Loanesloan
GorgyporgyCertainly! So, a Long Box is considered a Box Set? Like: ABBA - Thank You For The Music or Carpenters - Carpenters Gold - Greatest Hits?

I'd say 'YES' to both!

I'd say NO to ABBA after reading http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set (thanks for the link) - "Long Box" refers to the US long boxes that had a standard jewel case CD inside - again "enclosed in extra packaging". The ABBA release isn't, it's just a tall "digibook". Yet again, it's officially referred to as a box set.

Carpenters Gold - Greatest Hits has "extra packaging" though, but if that's to be regarded a "Box Set", then any digipak DVD in slipcase is a box set, right? Or is it the fact that it contains different types of media (2xCD+1xDVD) that makes it a "set"?

Eviltoastman
Not quite, the format list example shows multiple media and it is implied by the term "set".

OK - so basically, a "set" has to contain more than one media, but that media doesn't have to be an audio or video carrier, but might be something else like a book, booklet, art cards etc. This means The Beatles - Let It Be are. Just a jewel case in a slipcase isn't a box set, as the "set" can't consist of just one item.

Mr-Love
so basically, a "set" has to contain more than one media

Irrespective of the title, items like Orchestral Manoeuvres In The Dark - Pandora's Box which consist of just a disc and a box, even though not containing multiple items, deserve the format Box Set. There are quite a few releases like this. Perhaps the guidelines need a bit more nuance:
Multiple media in extra packaging would have a lower threshold to meet (just a slipcase would suffice), but single items would have a higher threshold, such as be a deluxe version in special packaging (not just a digipak vs. jewel case, but maybe a hardback book vs. digipak).

Mr-Love
Two other examples: AC/DC - Bonfire and Gary Numan - The Numa Years.

As a collector, I've perceived the latter the same as I perceive actual boxed items. It's a shame that because the format list includes "Box Set" but not "Book Set" and every other variation that some items qualify for a special tag and others don't. Either allow a wide range of items to gather under the one term, making it very generic, or add for assorted other packaging types to be chosen instead, such as: Metal Tin, Wood Case, Plastic Shell, etc.

Mr-Love
then any digipak DVD in slipcase is a box set,

Mr-Love
a "set" has to contain more than one media, but that media doesn't have to be an audio or video carrier, but might be something else like a book, booklet, art cards etc.

Oh my giddy Aunt.

Eviltoastman
Oh my giddy Aunt.

Do you care to elaborate?

OK I do it myself then - here are a few examples of DVD releases in DVD sized digipaks inside a slipcase:
- Carpenters Gold - Greatest Hits - 2xCD+DVD - tagged as Box Set. Why? I assume because it's a "set" of 2xCD and 1xDVD. Or is the tag incorrect?
- Depeche Mode - Tour Of The Universe : Barcelona 20/21.11.09 - 2xDVD+2xCD - not tagged as Box Set, but I assume that'd be OK as it's a "set" of 2xDVD and 2xCD?
- Depeche Mode - One Night In Paris, The Exciter Tour 2001 (A Live DVD By Anton Corbijn) - 2xDVD - not tagged as Box Set, but I assume that'd be OK as it's a "set" of 2xDVD?
- U2 - U2 Go Home (Live From Slane Castle Ireland) - 1xDVD - tagged as Box Set! Surely, this can't be correct as a "set" can't contain just 1xDVD, just like a single jewel case CD inside a slipcase isn't a box set either?

I hope you see my point now - it's getting really absurd if the exact same type of packaging may sometimes be tagged as box set and sometimes not, all depending on how many media carriers are included - either it's a box set or it's not, isn't it? In fact it's the same with the single jewel case inside a slipcase example - what if it contained 1xCD and 1xDVD, would that make it a box set?

Mr-Love
either it's a box set or it's not, isn't it?

Across the board? Not in the music industry.

If they sell you something and call is a Box Set, even if it's nothing more than a CD in a slipcase with a sticker thrown in for fun, it'll be a Box Set.

But not everything with a Slipcase (open at both ends or just one end) will be a Box Set, with or without the inclusion of extra goodies like DVDs, more CDs, stickers, The Keys To The Kingdom or whatever...

Because while Box Set nominally has something to do with the packaging (All Box Sets will come with external packaging encoming everything); It's not just about the packaging (not everything with external packaging will be a Box Set).

cellularsmoke
Across the board? Not in the music industry.

I'm talking about Discogs, not the real world. At Discogs, as shown above, something d and generally known as a box set may not be tagged as such, if it doesn't contain that "extra packaging". But other releases, that wouldn't normally be regarded as box sets, may use the tag.

Discogs, to a certain degree, has to reflect the real world. We don't exist in a vacuum.

cellularsmoke
Discogs, to a certain degree, has to reflect the real world. We don't exist in a vacuum.

Sadly, it sometimes feels like we do.

Update: I've now filed an SR, asking for the Box Set tag to be allowed for releases that are officially referred to as box sets, but don't come with "extra packaging", such as Gary Numan - The Numa Years.

Mr-Love
Update: I've now filed an SR,

I allready had, as I've told you, 4 days ago, but Mngt is not in a hurry. Probably busy with more important matters.

cellularsmoke
But not everything with a Slipcase (open at both ends or just one end) will be a Box Set, with or without the inclusion of extra goodies like DVDs, more CDs, stickers, The Keys To The Kingdom or whatever...

Because while Box Set nominally has something to do with the packaging (All Box Sets will come with external packaging encoming everything); It's not just about the packaging (not everything with external packaging will be a Box Set).

Am I realy dumb if I have no clue what you're saying here?
Why isn;t there anyone that can explain this just plain and simple: AAA is a Box Set, because..... BBB is not a Box Set because...... Is it that difficult?

I still can't understand why a CD wrapped in an extra cartboard slipcase is a Box Set!! And a Long Box isn't.

Let's try an analogy (this will fail, I'm going forward anyway);

All dachshunds are dogs. Not all dogs are dachshunds.

All Box Sets will have a similar trait (they'll be in form of 'box' - and box is such a loosely defined idea here it can only be explained as 'external packaging containing all items'); Not everything in that (or similar) type of packaging will be a box set.

Mr-Love
Update: I've now filed an SR, asking for the Box Set tag to be allowed for releases that are officially referred to as box sets, but don't come with "extra packaging", such as ABBA - Thank You For The Music, AC/DC - Bonfire and Gary Numan - The Numa Years.

I agree those are Box Sets, it was popular for a period to create those Books with the CD trays in the back or on the insides of the covers with pages of artwork, and be marketed and sold as Box Sets. (But again, not everything packaged that way is going to be a box set, in that last 2 years I picked up several Book releases that are just considered expanded versions).

Gorgyporgy
I still can't understand why a CD wrapped in an extra cartboard slipcase is a Box Set!! And a Long Box isn't.

Not sure what you mean now, as we've establised that a single jewel case CD in slipcase isn't a box set? As for long boxes that's what packaging such as Recoil - Hydrology And 1 + 2 is normally referred to, a sealed tall thin box containing (normally) one jewel case CD, and that's not a Box Set either.

(Long boxes are however listed at http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set which somehow says "Normally containing 2 CDs" which simply isn't true - maybe it's written like that because just the ones including 2 CDs may be tagged as Box Sets? Still the photo shows single CD long boxes...)

cellularsmoke
But again, not everything packaged that way is going to be a box set, in that last 2 years I picked up several Book releases that are just considered expanded versions

The box sets I refer to are all "tall" digibooks, containing 2 disc trays below/above each other (around twice the height of a jewel case), while a digibook would normally be in the size of a jewel case and as such never be called a box set. Or do you know of any tall ones that aren't referred to as box sets?

Gorgyporgy
I still can't understand why a CD wrapped in an extra cartboard slipcase is a Box Set!! And a Long Box isn't.

Mr-Love
Well, as I mentioned above, I can't see how that would be against the guidelines, as all media is indeed "enclosed in extra packaging".

That's why.

Eviltoastman
A slipcase is a box - a box may be made of any material. Being housed in a box does not make the thing a set. For instance, an album in a slipcase is not a box set unless it includes other items to comprise a set.

Why are these Original Album Classics tagged as Box Set? Because there is more than 1 item in it?

Gorgyporgy
Why are these Original Album Classics tagged as Box Set? Because there is more than 1 item in it?

Yes. It needs to be a "set", and a "set" can't contain just 1 item.

Mr-Love
The box sets I refer to are all "tall" digibooks, containing 2 disc trays below/above each other (around twice the height of a jewel case), while a digibook would normally be in the size of a jewel case and as such never be called a box set. Or do you know of any tall ones that aren't referred to as box sets?

Not quite fully double cd-tray tall;

Stevie Nicks - Enchanted (have no idea if this was ever called a Box Set by anyone, but it is a double-height book, w/ 3 CDs)

cellularsmoke
marketed and sold as Box Sets.

+1. If it's marked as such, it should be used as such. I think it's safe that the term transcended it's initial meaning in some cases, especially in the CD era.

A similar term that should be looked at is Album, which initially was for "album" type binders of 78 records.

Diognes_The_Fox
A similar term that should be looked at is Album, which initially was for "album" type binders of 78 records.

Not to mention EP, which was initially created by RCA to describe a specific physical format (7", 45 RPM, 2-3 songs/side). Probably until the 70's, it was understood as a specific format, until non-LP 12" records appeared.

It might be worth removing Album from the submission form when Shellac is selected, and replacing it with Album Binder (Al/B on the master pages, perhaps?) to avoid confusion from using the same term to mean two different things.

As for boxed set, what about:
Bartók* - Christa Ludwig, Walter Berry, The London Symphony Orchestra*, Istvan Kertesz* - Bluebeard's Castle
One LP, and a printed libretto, in a box with lid (NOT a slipcase). Are two audio media required? Because there are two items in the box.

Diognes_The_Fox
+1. If it's marked as such, it should be used as such.

So, to conclude ABBA - Thank You For The Music is to be considered a Box Set as it was marketed as such: http://www.abbasite.com/discography/album/thank-you-for-the-music/

And, to stay on Topic, what about Long Boxes? Does Mngt, Diognes_The_Fox has an opinion about that matter? We are not reaching a conclusion here, so we could do with some help.

Gorgyporgy
And, to stay on Topic, what about Long Boxes? Does Mngt, Diognes_The_Fox has an opinion about that matter? We are not reaching a conclusion here, so we could do with some help.

Weren't longboxes usually disposable packaging intended to be discarded after they were opened to access the CD? They were largely discontinued because of the waste from throwing out longboxes. If the box is intended to be discarded, I have trouble seeing how Box Set applies. A slipcase is a box, and is intended to be kept; it has a much better claim to Box Set.

Also, I seem to many CDs were sold in long boxes back in the day, so that was pretty much a standard, if wasteful, type of packaging. If it was standard packaging, how is it "extra" packaging?

The things linked above, e.g., ABBA - Thank You For The Music, are not long boxes, they are hardcover booklets (Digibooks, correct?) with spaces for CDs on the inner and/or outer cover. I have no problem with using box sets for those, but saying a Long Box is a box set will basically mean the vast majority of US CDs issued prior to 1993 can in some way be called box sets.

ThomasP64
Weren't longboxes usually disposable packaging intended to be discarded after they were opened to access the CD?

Maybe I've used the incorrect term to describe: http://cdn.discogs.sie.com/xQNi8WLtzIpfSLki0aoivRwnMaI=/fit-in/333x318/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-5494167-1449472305-1388.jpeg.jpg and the Front is: http://cdn.discogs.sie.com/ER2IQy3zbHej1grcL4Lrb-Z8dLA=/fit-in/600x820/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-5494167-1402149873-5416.jpeg.jpg It is similar to this: Carpenters - From The Top Long packiging. And it contains 3 CDs and a booklet, as shown on the images.
Long Box? Or is it named differently? And is it to be considered a Box Set?

Gorgyporgy
Long Box? Or is it named differently? And is it to be considered a Box Set?

Digibook, I believe. I would say that constitutes extra packaging. A Long Box was standard packaging that allowed LP storage bins to be used for packages with newfangled shiny 5" discs.

ThomasP64
Digibook, I believe.

You're sure? Here is a explanation of Long Box: http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#CD_.28CDr.2C_CDV.29 I believe that ABBA one: http://cdn.discogs.sie.com/xQNi8WLtzIpfSLki0aoivRwnMaI=/fit-in/333x318/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-5494167-1449472305-1388.jpeg.jpg qualifies for it?

xjoxjox
have you had a chance to look at : http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set ?

There are some interesting notions there...

Was mentioned above and I got my understanding from that.

it's alittle bit confusing, paradox and not constant

Mr-Love
a box set, ... includes just an LP and . . .

. . . something else that is not a record

but why should a cardboard box with only one CD inside be a box set?
like Pochill - Nothing But The Hill
it's just a different package

nobody consider LTJ Bukem - Journey Inwards as box set

or a cardboard box with 5 discs: what's the difference to a 5 disc fat boy jewel case?

_

cellularsmoke
All dachshunds are dogs. Not all dogs are dachshunds

like this :-)

If my definition and Discogs do not correspond, Discogs has redefined the term so as to create confusion. Some longbox links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longbox
http://mentalfloss.com/article/31148/why-were-cd-boxes-so-big-early-1990s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5ASn5ZEKCM (1990 news report on longboxes)
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/01/arts/cd-s-big-cardboard-box-is-history.html

All due respect, but if Discogs is defining Long Box differently, Discogs is wrong and it should stop.

I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with Box Set descriptions.... We don't define the old long boxes differently.

cellularsmoke
I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with Box Set descriptions.... We don't define the old long boxes differently.

I didn't think so. There seemed to be confusion over whether a digibook and a longbox are different. The term was being applied to 10 or 12 inch digibooks with two CDs being accommodated on an inside cover. The definition Gorgyporgy linked to on Discogs seems to be (incorrectly) cross-referenced with Box Set, creating the above confusion.

Ah, I see now. Wow is that wiki entry almost entirely wrong. The basic long box is absolutely not a Box Set, and the vast majority of them carried only one CD, not two. Also, while the discogs wiki is supposed to be helpful, I find it can be the opposite, and is not an official stand in for the Guidelines. It's not even an official adjunct to them.

cellularsmoke
Wow is that wiki entry almost entirely wrong...Also, while the discogs wiki is supposed to be helpful, I find it can be the opposite, and is not an official stand in for the Guidelines.

I've often thought certain things at Discogs are wrong. Unfortunately, some of them are in the Guidelines. Seriously, though, I'm glad we seem to have straightened out Long Box. Can we agree a multi-CD digibook qualifies as a box set? It certainly has special packaging.

Personally, I place Box Set in the same category I place Limited Edition, Special Edition, and all the rest of the marketing ; If it's marketed as a Box Set by an official source, it's a Box Set - packaging is not a defining factor of anything, it may be a common theme, but that's it.

As pointed out up thread - I own several digi-books, and some are box sets, some are simply Limited Edition versions of an album, some are just how the album came to begin with. The packaging itself has no bearing on what kind of release it is.

Diognes_The_Fox
+1. If it's marked as such, it should be used as such.

Thank you very much - ABBA - Thank You For The Music is yet again a box set. :)

Update: The only "problem" with this is that "Box Set" always has its own Format line, which kind of implies it's separate to the rest of the media.

cellularsmoke
Wow is that wiki entry almost entirely wrong. The basic long box is absolutely not a Box Set, and the vast majority of them carried only one CD, not two.

Exactly, I wrote about this further up this topic.

ThomasP64
Can we agree a multi-CD digibook qualifies as a box set? It certainly has special packaging.

It should be "extra" packaging, not "special". If it's not marketed as a box set, I don't think it deserves the Box Set tag, at least not at the moment. I assume you mean those double height packagings (see ABBA above)? Also, what's a "multi-CD digibook" - 2 or more CDs, 3 or more?

Just another example why I still think the "To note that all media are enclosed in extra packaging." box set definition is flawed: the ABBA - Arrival deluxe edition, a special CD+DVD package, surely may be seen as a "set", and as the digipak is contained in a slipcase - "extra packaging" - the release may be considered a box set. I certainly don't think it is though, but it shows the problem with the definition.

However I can't really think of a better definition at the moment, except for making hardback packaging a requirement - or adding Box Set to formats such as Album, Single and EP - i.e. that it must be factual.

Mr-Love
However I can't really think of a better definition at the moment, except for making hardback packaging a requirement - or adding Box Set to formats such as Album, Single and EP - i.e. that it must be factual.

Are you saying that the following:
Various - Ten Big Stiffs (ten singles packaged in a box with lid and a booklet)
can't be tagged Box Set unless we go out and find evidence that it was marketed as a box set? There actually is a physical box. Similarly, we shouldn't have to go look for evidence that Album applies for:
Art Hodes' Hot Five - Hot Jazz At Blue Note
because it is physically packaged in an album binder.

The physical presence of a box or the physical presence of an album binder should be sufficient to trigger use of the tag. And as for factual as used on this site, people here keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You can't pigeonhole the definition down; In the 80s and 90s the vast majority of Box Sets were actually what we define them as here: boxes. Some were 2x2 CDs trays in shape, some were the taller 1x2 CD trays in shape, but they were definitely Box Sets as commonly known for several decades.

In the late 90s there was a much greater emergence of reduced packaging releases as the environmental thing kicked off (which is part of what caused long boxes to disappear); like the digibook releases, still usually considered Box Sets by most people (and indeed most of the time kept in the "Box Set Section" of record stores. Then even more creative packaging came along, as people started to use Gatefold style cases for CDs, CDs in sleeves inside a box not much larger than a normal CD case, and even going to DVD clamshell cases sometimes.

What we haven't done is expand the definition to include both what was originally a Box Set to include the wider range of things that are now labeled directly as Box Sets with whatever fancy packaging they include. Not replace the definition, just add onto it.

ThomasP64
Are you saying that the following [...]

I was just trying to think of some other definition that wouldn't include releases such as ABBA - Arrival (CD+DVD digipak in slipcase). Maybe excluding slipcases open to both sides (sometimes referred to as "carded sleeves" on Discogs, even though the ABBA one is plastic) would be an option? Can't really think of any proper box sets that are open to both sides, but then again I'm sure they exist too.

Gorgyporgy
And, to stay on Topic, what about Long Boxes? Does Mngt, Diognes_The_Fox has an opinion about that matter? We are not reaching a conclusion here, so we could do with some help.

If I understand history correctly, the longbox was used so that record stores wouldn't have to buy new racks just for CD's. It's a different beast on it's own.

Gorgyporgy
Long Box? Or is it named differently? And is it to be considered a Box Set?

Long Box Box Set? There's definitely room for overlap between the two packaging concepts. I'd say something like just a regular jewel-case CD packaged in a longbox with a bunch of empty room would definitely not be considered one.

Diognes_The_Fox
If I understand history correctly, the longbox was used so that record stores wouldn't have to buy new racks just for CD's.

Which is pretty much the same reason that pop LPs were 10" records in the 50's. So stores wouldn't have to replace their 10" 78 racks with new LP racks.

Diognes_The_Fox
There's definitely room for overlap between the two packaging concepts.

Thought so too.
But still want to know Mngts opinion about this ABBA 'Long Box': Mr-Love, because this release was one of the reason he started this Topic in the first place. I say it is according to GL. 3 CDs and a booklet housed in a 'long box', not a normal jewel case.

Gorgyporgy
But still want to know Mngts opinion about this ABBA 'Long Box': ABBA - Chronicles - 3 Classic Albums And so does Mr-Love, because this release was one of the reason he started this Topic in the first place. I say it is according to GL. 3 CDs and a booklet housed in a 'long box', not a normal jewel case.

That is not the standard definition of a "Long Box."

That's not what's meant by Long Box at all, that's just a standard Box Set box, double tall, holds CDs in individual trays glues to the inside; that's pretty much the standard case of what a Box Set is.

A Long Box is the external cardboard box that 99% of us threw away when we bought a CD in the 80s because it held nothing of value and whose sole purpose was so record stores didn't need to replace Vinyl shelves to hold the new CDs in because they were twice as deep as a CD was. Once you remove the jewel case from a Long Box it's a unwieldy piece of cardboard that's hard to store at home.

ThomasP64
That is not the standard definition of a "Long Box."

I knew that, that's why the long box is placed between '. It was explained above.

cellularsmoke
that's just a standard Box Set box, double tall, holds CDs in individual trays glues to the inside; that's pretty much the standard case of what a Box Set is.

Thank you, I'll correct it here: ABBA - Chronicles - 3 Classic Albums

Is it possible to add an image of a real Long Box? It's obvious that the page given here:

xjoxjox
have you had a chance to look at : http://wiki.discogs.sie.com/index.php/Packaging#Box_Set ?

is not correct (and I don't mean that it opens at a DC page and not a wiki, as it did before!).
Thanks.

Gorgyporgy
it opens at a DC page and not a wiki, as it did before!

Same here.

In the meantime, there's always: http://reference.discogslabs.com/wiki/Packaging

cellularsmoke
that's just a standard Box Set box, double tall, holds CDs in individual trays glues to the inside; that's pretty much the standard case of what a Box Set is.

"standard case of what a Box Set is", really? Seeing as there's no additional packaging, it's NOT a box set according to the format list, which is what this topic is all about. However, if it was marketed as a box set the Box Set tag may be used as confirmed by management above. Now ABBA - Chronicles - 3 Classic Albums as a Box Set again, based on your comment alone.

Now I'd be fine to always tag releases in this kind of packaging as box sets (hardback tall digibooks, with room for 4 discs, often with a tall booklet inside), but if so that should be agreed on by a number of s/management first.

Mr-Love
but if so that should be agreed on by a number of s/management first.

Just have a little patience, please. And I'm not reverting my edit to Box Set in the above mentioned release. I consider these comments:

Diognes_The_Fox
There's definitely room for overlap between the two packaging concepts.

(Mangement) and :

cellularsmoke
hat's just a standard Box Set box, double tall, holds CDs in individual trays glues to the inside; that's pretty much the standard case of what a Box Set is.

as valid 'proof' that this is actually a Box Set. If, later on, decided that it is not, I'm happy to revert the Format.

Mr-Love
Imho the guideline/format description of "Box Set" needs to be updated - one key factor should be that the packaging should be hardback, i.e. a thin slipcase may never be enough. Also, if a release is officially referred to as a box set, it may be tagged as such, as long as it's hardback.

Still stands. It need to be more expanded.

Seeing as thousands of thin slipcase releases are tagged as box sets I'm sure we're never going to get a hardback requirement for box sets. But if these are box sets, then I agree releases such as that Chronicles ABBA release is a box set too, as should any release in such packaging be.

I'm not sure why we're hung up on "additional packaging" but I guess we are.

It's not a digibook, it's not any form of jewel case, they were economical in the packaging, that's for sure. But it seems no less a box set then those that are the giant record sized 2x2 boxes with the tray glued to the bottom half. Just because you can't remove the lid...

I don't have much to add to this except that once again we bog ourselves down in a level of linguistic minutiae that prevents us from acting half the time; it's the same poor out of sync definition of Compilation that we have.

Forum Thread #231003

nik
I think any non-standard packaging that contains two or more items in standard packaging is a box set.

quote is from here: http://www.discogs.sie.com/help/forums/topic/231003#2865968

Are books with a CD inside the book packed in a bag or slipcase

So they are box set because of the additional packing (plastic bag / slip cardboard etc.) inside are the books and inside the books are the CDs...

Isn't it then

1 x Boxset [for the additional packing]
1 x All Media [book & record]
1 x CD

?

A world of difference between Buffalo Springfield - Box Set and 2 cd's in a slipcase.

Mr-Love
thousands of thin slipcase releases are tagged as box sets

ugh, imo that's a stretch. I wouldn't call a 1xCD in a jewel case with a slip case a box set. Examples?

Mr-Love
if it was marketed as a box set the Box Set tag may be used as confirmed by management above.

True. ABBA put out two somewhat similar releases and has one marketed as a box set, but the other not. Comparing the two releases, is there anything that would make the non-tagged release conceptually different enough from the other one that would disqualify it from being a box set?

Earjerk...
I think any non-standard packaging that contains two or more items in standard packaging is a box set.

I think the key here is standard packaging within standard packaging, like a box containing regular jewel cases or regular LP jackets. Based on that logic, I don't think this would apply to that statement.

Diognes_The_Fox
imo that's a stretch. I wouldn't call a 1xCD in a jewel case with a slip case a box set.

Now I didn't mean 1xCDs in slipcases (even though that's been discussed previously in this topic - a 1xCD in jewel case inside a slipcase is not a box set, but if the slipcase also holds an extra large booklet next to the jewel case it could be considered one), but multiple CDs (usually albums) inside a slipcase, such as Nitzer Ebb - Catalogue.

Diognes_The_Fox
ABBA put out two somewhat similar releases and has one marketed as a box set, but the other not. Comparing the two releases, is there anything that would make the non-tagged release conceptually different enough from the other one that would disqualify it from being a box set?

Well it's 2 very different releases - one was a very special career spanning box set with unique track listing, many tracks previously unreleased on CD, all remastered for this set, also including a thick special booklet made for the set, while the other is just 3 albums put together with nothing special whatsoever - like the Nitzer Ebb release above, only that the discs don't come in separate packaging.

But then, it seems it's the outer packaging that's important, not if the individual items are packaged separately inside of it? As written above regarding the Box Set definition:

marcelrecords
if all media (say, an LP and a 7" or a CD and a book) are packaged together into a box, it's a box set, no matter if the individual items have an extra wrapper or whatever inside the box
[...]
in other words: is there a box enveloping all content, then it's a box set.

Then it's just a question of what we regard as a box - I surely think a tall hardback digibook feels much more like a box than a small thin slipcase, even if there's no "book" content but just the front and back sleeve with disc trays on the inside.

Diognes_The_Fox
ugh, imo that's a stretch. I wouldn't call a 1xCD in a jewel case with a slip case a box set. Examples?

I might try to make a case for Charles 'Baron' Mingus* - West Coast 1945-49. CD in jewel case and a 72-page booklet packaged as separate items in a slipcase.

ThomasP64
CD in jewel case and a 72-page booklet packaged as separate items in a slipcase.

On the very same logic that makes a release such as Nitzer Ebb - Catalogue a box set your example would indeed also be one, as the separate jewel case and booklet is a "set", with the slipcase then turning into a "box".

Other similar examples include Please / Further Listening 1984–1986.

Diognes_The_Fox
Comparing the two releases, is there anything that would make the non-tagged release conceptually different enough from the other one that would disqualify it from being a box set?

No, IMO not. But it is not marketed specifically as Box Set, AFAIK. I tagged it as Box Set, because I honestly think that it is one.
But, somebody else might have another opinion and revert it. The whole circus starts again, I'm afraid. And that is not the intention behind this Topic.

Earjerk...
I think any non-standard packaging that contains two or more items in standard packaging is a box set.

doesn't help much, I'm afraid. The packaging of ABBA - Chronicles - 3 Classic Albums is also. The only difference is the format of the booklet.

Mr-Love
But then, it seems it's the outer packaging that's important, not if the individual items are packaged separately inside of it?

If that's the case

Mr-Love
Then it's just a question of what we regard as a box

So?

To be clear, Gorgyporgy have both attributed a quote to me that is actually a quote from Nik.

nik
I think any non-standard packaging that contains two or more items in standard packaging is a box set.

Earjerk...
have both attributed a quote to me that is actually a quote from Nik.

We know, but if we highlight it from your respond, given above, it gets your name. But, I'm sure one doesn;t held you responsible for that!?

David Bowie - Interview Picture Disc & Fully Illustrated Book
Book & CD = All Media?