Because of my approved mass edit here http://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/415187 I come into a situation now where I have to make the stated above in the headline.
5 different (!) albums alone from the changed artist with the same title India Archive Music.
All of them have additional artists on the cover, 4 out of 5 have real main titles on the cover, most with company credits in Notes.
For the label: Vilayat Khan has 5 albums all with the main title Sitar, same situation as above.
a) For database purposes more than irritating
b) wrong according to RSG and rulings
As I foresee problems with the submitter who has organized everything so neatly BUT violating the Rules by that I bring that to the community to be on the safe side for the first part and to ask for approval to change all other releases from that label subsequently according to the RSG …
typoman2
As I foresee problems with the submitter who has organized everything so neatly BUT violating the Rules by that I bring that to the community to be on the safe side for the first part and to ask for approval to change all other releases from that label subsequently according to the RSG …
It seems to me that "Shujaat Khan - Sitar" is simply a description of the Artist, i.e. Shujaat Khan who plays Sitar. You have suggested that four of these albums have Titles and I agree with you. Thus: Shujaat Khan*, Sandeep Das - Raga Shuddh Kalyan Title = "Raga Shuddh Kalyan"?
Sadly, there are no additional images to help us.
You foresee problems with the submitter? Please link this Forum thread to the affected releases and we'll see if the Submitter is willing to the conversation.
Yes, Shujaat Khan*, Sandeep Das - Raga Shuddh Kalyan = Raga Shuddh Kalyan.
as stated on the cover + addition of the second artist.
I will paste the link into the above sub histories as suggested [Done]. Thanks
Edit: The OS' last edit was 5 hours ago – so he is active.
thank you contributors for opening this forum thread. As main contributor of IAM and of most of their CD's in my collection, here a short note: in the history of the traditional classical indian music, the instruments are given from generation to generation over centuries to remain the ragas. the names of the ragas are important as well, but it's more the way they are played with the main instrument. Indian Archive Music is using this concept in a similar way and named their CD's titles after instruments, see here: http://www.discogs.sie.com/label/155986-India-Archive-Music
I think it's the right of the record company and artist how to name the CD titles, even when it's confusing having 5 times the same instrument as a title. It's part of the IAM concept like the cover designs, graphics, booklets and credits.
Even when 'wrong' to the RSG and 'violating' rules, the IAM titles concept should be respected. Maybe we should ask him: Diognes_The_Fox (Staff)
djmifume
I think it's the right of the record company and artist how to name the CD titles, even when it's confusing having 5 times the same instrument as a title. It's part of the IAM concept like the cover designs, graphics, booklets and credits.
a) The record company has chosen a main title – it's printed bigger than the credit role Sitar etc on the cover and should be therefore the main title as per RSG.
b) The »right« of the record company and marketing does NOT weigh more than the RSG AFAIK.
c) If you want to violate the Rules here – and not just one as you also don't mention the second artist on the cover – you need approval by the Management, officially by filing an SR via https://www.discogs.sie.com/
typoman2
Yes, Shujaat Khan - Sitar would be surely Six Ragas,
Shujaat Khan - Sitar = Raga Malkauns / Bhairavi,
Shujaat Khan - Sitar = Raga Bilaskhani Todi / Bhairavi and
Shujaat Khan - Sitar = Raga Shuddh Kalyan.
as stated on the cover + addition of the second artist.
djmifume
Maybe we should ask him: Diognes_The_Fox (Staff)
I'd think you would rather need nik's approval here. He is the database manager. This affects too many releases and could be seen as model case for others …
And, BTW, you can't link a discogs page here as »proof« which you have created by yourself by ignoring the RSGs.
djmifume
Indian Archive Music is using this concept in a similar way and named their CD's titles after instruments
I have managed to find one image out of over 70 submissions that s what you say here.
Please, when you get the opportunity, add images of the other tray inserts and discs. It is the absence of these images that meant that we had to use the existing images as evidence.
This is the image: http://cdn.discogs.sie.com/isngv0VeTFEe_xwjGy_FBe6h8iU=/fit-in/600x473/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-4854424-1377557447-4498.jpeg.jpg
Note what is written on the spines.
Also note the "Also on India Archive Music" .
This does not give you the right to disregard the Guidelines as they stand. I suggest that you start a new thread seeking to make these albums special cases and, importantly, give ing evidence such as the images I have requested. Does the label have a website to what you have said about album titles?
Main artist, the second on cover, the instrument and the raga title are highlighted all the same.
They doesn't ignore the tabla players as you do as main artists …
Now the OS is completing the mass edit with the name but obviously ignoring other mistakes. Shujaat Hussain Khan* - Holi And Basant (Classical Sitar) – ignoring the used ANV, company as label.
Please, djmifume, that doesn't help … you better had filed the SR in that time or showed some proof …
Edit: and I also would have updated the Headings and made Index and sub-tracks if you would have allowed me to complete the mass edit. Your execution of the edits is really annoying. You don't help your case by this.
hello typoman2, Clogwhistle, truedream & F104G,
corrected all Shujaat Khan to ANV now.
Yes we should ask Nik about the case 'Instrument' as 'Title'.
Maybe anyone can find out the email address of Lyle Wachowsky?
Please, Clogwhistle has posted for you … and it isn't convincing.
Here the affected RSGs in question – the important parts highlighted by me. And some questions: 2.1.2. Names are entered as they appear on the release. […] We even have to take field recorders and compilers as main artists because they appear on the cover – so what's the point in supressing legitimate artists?
3.1.2. Enter the title as close to the way it appears on the release as possible 3.1.3. Sometimes the title is different on the cover, on the spine etc. It is best to use the title on the cover, but also consider what is going to be most useful to other s, so the most complete title is better no matter where it appears. […] Exactly how is it useful for s to have 5 different albums from one artist all with the same credit role as main title despite the real main title appearing prominent on the cover?
typoman2,
don't get personal, keep respect! (evidence, annoying…)
I wrote Nik concerning this forum, let's wait and see what he will say.
By the way, I own most of the IAM Music in my collection and could scan the covers later (lots of work).
The 1st US pressings has only the main artists and instrument on cover and spine, additional musicians mentioned in the booklet. later releases have sometimes additional musicians on the cover, too but not on the cover spine, another reason to leave it as original as possible. s can read the titles of the ragas further down, when open the file, if they're really interested what the artists is playing with his instrument.
djmifume
s can read the titles of the ragas further down, when open the file, if they're really interested what the artists is playing with his instrument.
This is nonsense. The titles of these releases are clearly not all "Sitar".
The question of main artist is less clear, but all artists on the front cover should be billed unless a lot of discussion makes us sure it's a situation like with Gary Burton - Times Square).
djmifume
typoman2,
don't get personal, keep respect! (evidence, annoying…)
Since when did communication that starts with "Please" become disrespectful?
⇧For What It's Worth ~ AFAICS / The constant back and forth is quite tedious without resolution, this does create additional friction and temperatures tend to arise; especially when some original requests are ignored.⇧
Many thanks for that, nik.
Would you be so kind also adressing the problem with the not mentioned main artists who are stated on the cover – breaching RSG 2.1.2. I know it's obvious and don't has to be discussed as it has been many times before but … just to make sure.
Hello again,
thanks nik for helping out.
Changing Title 'Sitar' to 'Sitar (Raga Names)' seems to me the best solution to avoid further confusions.
Example here: http://www.discogs.sie.com/Shujaat-Khan-Sitar/release/3881363
'Sitar' to 'Sitar (Raga Malkauns)'
4 have this:
djmifume
Phiow
wcbn
1 private
what do they think?
IAM CD Main Artists mentioned in big letters on front cover and alone cover spine, additional musicians are mentioned in small letters on front cover and in booklet only, not on cover spine and back cover can be added optional, no problem.
Do you want me to change all of them? http://www.discogs.sie.com/label/155986-India-Archive-Music
I think that this would be the ideal outcome.
I have re-read the guidelines with respect to Album Title and I feel some sympathy for your position. However, in the absence of other images my suggestions were based on what I could see. You are welcome to add the remaining images in of your claim that the albums are called "Sitar" (the label website did this claim) and while this discussion is still active perhaps we could ask nik if the changes below are acceptable:
Shujaat Khan* - Sitar Title = "Sitar (Six Ragas)"?
Shujaat Khan* - Sitar Title = "Sitar (Raga Malkauns / Bhairavi)"?
Shujaat Khan* - Sitar Title = "Sitar (Raga Bilaskhani Todi / Bhairavi)"?
Shujaat Khan* - Sitar Title = "Sitar (Raga Shuddh Kalyan)"?
I think that we would need the images to these titles and we would need to convince the other s that the label does indeed name these albums simply after the principle instrument. The point is, though, that the titles would then be "most helpful to other s" (see RSG §3.1.3)
I can't find the label website / a citation for this.
djmifume
Main Artists mentioned in big letters on front cover and alone cover spine, additional musicians are mentioned in small letters on front cover and in booklet only, not on cover spine and back cover can be added optional, no problem.
First of all: of course the whole series … there is no difference between having 5 releases with the same main title Sitar from Vilayat Khan, right? That was the reason for this thread.
Secondly – additional main artists – no, not optional but according to RSG 2.1.2 when on cover.
For the main titles, I don't feel comfortable using the small printed credit role as the main title if we have indeed a main title presented as such.
Feeble indeed, if I look at all the other cover scans.
Even in a case like this: Ajoy Chakrabarty, Samar Saha - Ajoy Chakrabarty (Vocal) normally the main artist's name would be the main title as per RSG 3.2.1, the credit role ONLY as per 3.2.3 when explained in the Notes why the credit role becomes the main title …
By the way, djmifume, all these CDs have the Album tag but there's nowhere a reference for this as asked for in RSG 6.10. The only reference I found up to now is for one artist here: http://www.debashishbhattacharya.com/albums.php
Can you supply these for the series, please?
And furthermore – it would really be helpful to have more scans. No serious voter can vote for all these as there is not even a scan of the inlay with the track list to confirm. Thank you.
hello typoman2, I can scan the back covers of all the 58 IAM CD's I own later, but I have not the time now. The mass edit for IAM you started changing titles and additional musicians as main artists is okay for me, when discogs rules allowed this. Check and complete overview here: http://www.discogs.sie.com/label/155986-India-Archive-Music?page=1&genre=All&limit=500
That would be great, djmifume – no rush, it's a lot of work … Nonetheless it would be great to document this exceptional series from IAM as thorough as possible at discogs as it it hard to get infos about it.
And you're the one here who owns a whole bunch of them …
