PAN Merge Fae Barnes / Fay Barnes -- Maggie Jones pseudonym

Maggie Jones shows Faye Barnes as an alias but I believe Fae Barnes should also be:
Currently Fae Barnes artist page shows as: "Composer. Do not confuse with Faye Barnes."
https://www.discogs.sie.com/artist/4105370-Faye-Barnes

Wikipedia shows that she used both Fay names:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Jones_(blues_musician)
Also known as: Fay (or Fae) Barnes, The Texas Moaner & The Texas Nightingale

One of her pseudonyms is the name The Texas Moaner (Texas Moaner Blues), which is the only song listed under Fae Barnes

Clarence Williams often accompanied Maggie Jones on songs and he is the co-writer of the song The Texas Moaner
Numerous mentions of them as songwriters:
"... Texas Moaner Blues,” co-composed by Williams and Texas blues singer Fae Barnes (aka Maggie Jones) (OKeh 8157, August 1, 1924). "
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Blues_on_Stage/DuWbEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Texas+Moaner+Blues%22+%22fae+barnes%22&pg=PT205&printsec=frontcover
Copyright shows Fae Barnes with Clarence Williams
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Canadian_Patent_Office_Record_and_Re/Qk4fEPhEy1cC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Texas+Moaner+Blues%22+%22fae+barnes%22&pg=PA105&printsec=frontcover

I'd say either:
1 - Faye Barnes should be merged with Fay Barnes
2 - Fay Barnes should be merged with Faye Barnes

xiphophilos

+1 for merge of "Faye Barnes" (4105370) credits into "Fay Barnes" (910086).

JimmyLewisSeeker
1 - Faye Barnes should be merged with Fay Barnes

+1 merge and keep PAN Fay. Great research here!

Now checking to see how much work I'll have to do to merge (not that much), I found one entry that is a separate Faye Barnes:
Piano player on this in 1969--Maggie Jones died in 1940
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/6316382-Ernestine-George-Beautiful-Spirituals-Sung-By-Ernestine-George
Found her here: Faye Burns Barnes: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/theadvocate/name/faye-barnes-obituary?id=6861904
She ..."with graduate degrees from both Louisiana State and Southern Universities" which is on sleeve notes of release
Born in 1929, years after Maggie Jones
I think the rest can be merged though to Fay Barnes while I keep this entry in place and move alias to Fay

TopCats45s
JimmyLewisSeeker1 - Faye Barnes should be merged with Fay Barnes
+1 merge and keep PAN Fay. Great research here!

+1 vote

I did as the pluses confirmed. Essentially switched the bios of the artists. Sorry I did it so quick but best time for me to change was today when I have a little time today.
I've updated the artist pages with additional info on the 2nd Faye Barnes. I wonder if the first Fae Barnes/Maggie Jones actually was a pianist (hard to decipher as there's a pianist on nearly everything she ever recorded so hard to separate), or at least a recorded pianist--or it came from the wrong Faye discogs entry 10 years ago. Anyway, they are different and fixed for now.
Thanks to all.

I haven't looked into the matter - BUT, you do not carry out changes like this a meagre three HOURS after you first started a forum thread - even if you got a few yes votes for your suggestion.

Rushed and incorrect choice of PAN - we do not finish forum discussion after just three hours!

"FAE (FAYE) BARNES / This was Maggie Jones's maiden name; as she was better known by her married name, the Victor and Paramount records credited to Fae Barnes and Faye Barnes will be found listed under Maggie Jones." (Blues & gospel records 1890-1943. Fourth edition / compiled by Robert M. W. Dixon, John Godrich and Howard Rye, Oxford University Press, 1997, p. 41)

The Maggie Jones entry (p. 491-493) entry of the same standard discography shows all Black Swan/Paramount 78 credited with either "Fae" of "Faye" but NEVER "Fay" (nor does any LP/CD reissues of those 78s use "Fay"). [Her one Victor test was never released],
Whether there are some composers credits hiding in among the 50 (the flawed ANV searches in PANs today makes it troublesome to tell) should not matter - these are all from later dates.

IF INDEED we feel a need to use different name forms (one numberless PAN + one with (2) is surely an alternative) then the choice ought be "Fae", not "Fay".

But first - all these rushed changes should be reverted ASAP (or stand the risk of being reverted by the use of Entirely Incorrect votes.)

Edit: grammar

Various - Blues Festival 1 for the classic blues singer.

Conclusion:
All three profiles are correct according to guidelines and conform with their generation history. To be honest, I wouldn't even have discussed this simple clean up, where thorough research clearly shows the necessary edits.

JimmyLewisSeeker
Anyway, they are different and fixed for now.

I agree that your edits are an improvement of the database. Well done!

Duchamp163
all these rushed changes should be reverted ASAP

Totally disagree. A reversal of the edits is clearly against guidelines.
Maggie Jones was correct and long overdue.
The Maggie Jones's maiden name, please start a forum thread and ask for a PAN change.

Duchamp163
Black Swan/Paramount 78 credited with either "Fae" of "Faye" but NEVER "Fay"

So what?
We don't need Godrich, Dixon and Rye to tell us, we can easily see this from the database entries:
Faye Barnes* Acc. By Fletcher Henderson's Orch.* - The Gouge Of Armour Avenue / The Chicago Gouge
After having searched through most if not all credits listed under Louis Armstrong - Ritratto Di Louis Armstrong (not ed by pictorial evidence)

I really do not understand the reasoning here ...
IF "Fay Barnes has been generated [...] appearing as "F. Barnes" on the generating release" ... How on earth can that be "correctly generated" for a name form not on the release that generated it??

And how can this PAN be the correct choice, when that PAN does not appear on any release by that artist as a performing artist (old 78s or reissues on LP/CD), or as "the majority of entries are writer credits and list her either as "F. Barnes" or just "Barnes" - just because it is possible to dig up three (of 50!) showing her name MISSPELLT?

It's just illogical ... We have the choice of two first names, "Fae" or "Faye", both used on releases back in those days, and we KNOW from a reliable source that the first of these is the CORRECT spelling of her real name (before she started using a pseudonym and became more known under that).
Why on earth should we choose an INCORRECT spelling of her real name, found on only a handful of releases in the database?

And - take note of the time frame here - we do not go ahead and make changes THREE hours after a forum thread has been open. That in itself is in my opinion reason for the changes to be reverted.

I agree with Duchamp163 that I did rush the changes too soon.
Regarding the PAN--I didn't change it--it was already set as "Fay Barnes" with 50+ entries under it. I agree that "Fae Barnes" would be a better choice (I noticed this as I was making the few changes--7 I think, that I did). Currently, there are just 4 entries under "Fae" and 3 under "Faye" and none under "Fay"; the rest are "F. Barnes" or "Barnes/Darnes". However, I am willing to do the work if people wish it to change to "Fae Barnes" rather than "Fay Barnes". She did also go by "Fay" & "Faye" but all her recordings (one label excepted) are under Maggie Jones or Fae Barnes. Songwriting was mostly under "F. Barnes" but there are a couple with "Fay Barnes" and pictorial evidence as mr_mando pointed out.

Regarding jumping the gun and rushing. I agree I did. I didn't think I'd have time today (weather changed that) and so I pushed it. A few times ago someone made changes to two artists from a forum post I made and I had to do some fixing after. I guess that was fresh in my mind and didn't want to repeat that. Still, I agree I should have waited. That said, I do think the artist pages are correct now and whether she should be under "Fay Barnes" or "Fae Barnes" is a legitimate question.

Regarding her real name:
There does seem to be disagreement on whether she was born Maggie Jones or Fae Barnes but to me there's more evidence she was born Jones than Barnes as the research shows her parents names (Pomp and Augusta (Craige or Cragg) Jones) & family while the Barnes just has circa 1900 without the names of her parents and sometimes Hillston as the town rather than Hillsboro (there is no Hillston, Texas). Still, it obviously could be wrong. As shown below, blues singers of that time are still not all identified properly.

Excuse my verboseness but once I get going... credit to Duchamp163 sincerely.
I should have researched this more before I rushed. I have since. Some of what I've found:

Wikipedia: "Her birth name is sometimes given as Fae Barnes, and her year of birth as 1900, but the researchers Bob Eagle and Eric LeBlanc state that she was born in 1894 and that "Fae Barnes" was a stage name."[5][1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Jones_(blues_musician)
1. (December 6, 1931). "New Artist on WBAP Staff Program". Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Retrieved March 22, 2021.
5. Eagle, Bob; LeBlanc, Eric S. (2013). Blues: A Regional Experience. Santa Barbara, California: Praeger. p. 523. ISBN 978-0313344237.

Wikipedia's #1 source:
"New Artist on WBAP Staff Program A new artist makes her appearance tonight on WBAP in the person of Maggie Jones,
noted negro Columbia recording artist whose services as a radio entertainer have been obtained exclusively by WBAP while she is in Texas. Known also as Fay Barnes, the singer of "blues" songs, recently toured Europe with the famous negro revue, Lew Leslie's "Blackbirds." She is the daughter of Pomp. Jones of Hillsboro, Texas. Eleven years ago she visited New York and applied at the Columbia..."
https://www.newspapers.com/article/fort-worth-star-telegram/74055297/
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Fort Worth, Texas • Sun, Dec 6, 1931, Page 15

Wikipedia's #5 source:
"Our research shows that Fae Barnes was a stage name of Maggie Jones, not her maiden name as previously reported."
Before this, the book talks about how they research blues singers and how some still defy identification.
https://books.google.com/books?id=YOfEEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA502&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%22fae+barnes%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiShuXM5LSNAxVg5ckDHW5EHp8Q6AF6BAgLEAM
Blues: A Regional Experience - Page 502 - Bob L. Eagle, Eric S. LeBlanc · 2013

"Jones, Maggie [Fae Barnes] (1894–1940).Maggie Jones, pianist, vocalist, lyricist, and blues recording artist, was born in Hillsboro, Texas, in March of 1894. The daughter of sharecroppers, Pomp and Augusta (Craige or Cragg) Jones, she had at least one brother, Langston J “Lank” Jones, a World War I veteran. In 1900 her mother worked as a cook, and her father was in prison and worked in the convict lease system in Falls County until he received a pardon from Governor Joseph D. Sayers in 1901."
https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/barnes-fae-maggie-jones

Maggie Jones Biography
"Born c.1900 Hillsboro, Texas, United States
She was born Fae Barnes in Hillsboro, Texas. Her year of birth is most regularly cited as 1900, although this has not been proven."
https://the78rpmrecordspins.wordpress.com/category/recording-artists-of-the-1920s-and-1930s/page/4/

"MAGGIE JONES Maggie Jones was born Fae Barnes in Hillsboro , Texas , around 1900. Billed as the “Texas Night- ingale , " by the 1920s she was singing in New York City clubs and theaters , and touring on the TOBA circuit . She recorded between 1923 and 1926 for a number of labels, accompanied by Louis Armstrong, Charlie Green, Fletcher Henderson, the St. Louis Rhythm Kings, and her own jazz band, among other musicians. She seems to have stopped performed in 1934."
https://books.google.com/books?id=mTpFAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA339&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%22fae+barnes%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiShuXM5LSNAxVg5ckDHW5EHp8Q6AF6BAgJEAM

"... Maggie Jones (aka Fae Barnes)...
Hailing from Hillsboro, Texas, some sixty miles southwest of Dallas, Maggie Jones (b. 1894) was in her midtwenties when she began appearing on the vaudeville stage at the Park Theater... In a blurb in the Chicago Defender on November 24, 1923, the paper announced Jone's g to Black Swan Records while she was performing in New York and dubbed her "The Texas Moaner.""
https://www.google.com/books/edition/See_That_My_Grave_Is_Kept_Clean/AYPOEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%22fae+barnes%22&pg=PT49&printsec=frontcover

"Maggie Jones , whose real name was Fae Barnes , was born c . 1900 in Hillsboro , fifty miles south of Dallas , Texas . She moved to New York City in the early twenties . " The Texas Nightingale " also recorded an anti - Jim Crow song with Fletcher Henderson at the piano."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Nobody_Knows_Where_the_Blues_Come_From/m8WrEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%22fae+barnes%22&pg=PA157&printsec=frontcover
Nobody Knows Where the Blues Come From: Lyrics and History - books.google.com › books - Robert Springer · 2009

"MAGGIE JONES This artist's real name was Fae ( or Fay ) Barnes , under which some of her titles were issued . Vocal ... FAE BARNES . Acc . by Fletcher Henderson , p . New York , September 4 , 1923 ."
https://books.google.com/books?id=7p5HAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA935&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%22fae+barnes%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiM97DO6LSNAxW26ckDHZnKOjc4ChDoAXoECAYQAw
Jazz and Ragtime Records, 1897-1942 - Volume 1 - Page 935 - Brian Rust, Malcolm Shaw · 2002

"Maggie Jones ( Fae Barnes ) b . 1900 , Hillsboro , TX Vocals / Classic Female Blues
Maggie Jones , " The Texas Nightingale , ” was born Fae Barnes in Texas around 1900. She first showed up in New York in 1922 and ed the black ..."
All Music Guide to the Blues: The Definitive Guide to the Blues - Vladimir Bogdanov, Chris Woodstra, Stephen Thomas Erlewine · 2003

Her first recording (though not released) seems to have been with name Maggie Jones (Jul 26, 1923),
then quickly Fae Barnes (c.Aug, 1923) the alternating then quickly only Maggie Jones:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Moanin_Low/qE7EEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22maggie+jones%22+%2B%22comedienne%22&pg=PA296&printsec=frontcover
She had 37 recordings as Maggie Jones and 4 as Fae Barnes, none as Fay Barnes or Faye Barnes
Only this release has her as "Faye Barnes", though it was recorded as "Fae Barnes"
Faye Barnes* Acc. By Fletcher Henderson's Orch.* – The Gouge Of Armour Avenue / The Chicago Gouge
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/12132533-Faye-Barnes-Acc-By-Fletcher-Hendersons-Orch-The-Gouge-Of-Armour-Avenue-The-Chicago-Gouge
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Jazz_and_Ragtime_Records_1897_1942/7p5HAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22fae+barnes%22+%22Gouge+Of+Armour+Avenue%22&pg=PA935&printsec=frontcover

THE RECORDINGS OF MAGGIE JONES: An Annotated Tentative Personnelo - Discography
"JONES, Maggie: born: Hillston (Hillsboro?), Texas, c. 1899; died: many years ago"
http://www.harlem-fuss.com/pdf/singers/harlem_fuss_singers_jones_maggie.pdf
Discography shows 22 total releases (first one a test pressing with no release) and the rest 2 songs per release.

The "Faye Barnes" thing seems to be for theatre/vaudeville--it appears:
"But the blues singer who had the longest engagement at the Park was Maggie Jones - or Faye Barnes , as she was christened . Generally she was known in the earlier years as Maggie Barnes and for nearly a decade she was a continual attraction at the theater . Born in [text missing]... As early as 1923 Maggie Jones under her maiden name of Faye Barnes, began to record..."
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Blues_Come_to_Texas/rhGLDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22faye+barnes%22+%22maggie+jones%22&pg=PT232&printsec=frontcover
The Blues Come to Texas: Paul Oliver and Mack McCormick's ... - 2019

In the 1970's and 1980's is when they first seem to have figured out that Maggie Jones and Fae Barnes / Faye Barnes were the same (though some still considered them different people):
Hendersonia: The Music of Fletcher Henderson and His Musicians - Walter C. Allen · 1973 · Snippet view Found inside – Page 108
"... Faye Barnes was the true name of singer Maggie Jones . It is not entirely conclusive , in the case of this record , whether or not this is Maggie Jones here . I am unable to identify the cornetist . Matrix 1800 is unidentified ; 1803-04"
https://books.google.com/books?id=8yIKAQAAMAAJ&q=%22faye+barnes%22+%22maggie+jones%22&dq=%22faye+barnes%22+%22maggie+jones%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18bPy9LSNAxUi5MkDHZwvCNYQ6AF6BAgGEAM
Storyville - Issues 123-136 - Page 66 - 1986 · Snippet view Found inside – Page 66
"... Faye Barnes are the same person ( = Maggie Jones ) . He suggests that the Paramount picture of Faye Barnes reproduced on page 75 of Derrick Stewart - Baxter's Ma Rainey and the Classic Blues Singers is identical to the Columbia ..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=K4c4AQAAIAAJ&q=%22faye+barnes%22+%22maggie+jones%22&dq=%22faye+barnes%22+%22maggie+jones%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi18bPy9LSNAxUi5MkDHZwvCNYQ6AF6BAgMEAM

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There's lots of other books pointing to each as correct name, sourced I'm sure from most of what is above, earlier works or vice versa. To me, there is more family evidence to point to her being born Maggie Jones than Fae/Faye/Fay Barnes.

Duchamp163
I really do not understand the reasoning here ...

It would help if you got back to the guidelines and did some reading.

Duchamp163
How on earth can that be "correctly generated" for a name form not on the release that generated it??

RSG §2.1.3. B): [...]However, when consistently credited with initials or a partial name (or a combination thereof), the complete name should be the PAN if reliable sources are provided (even if this results in a PAN with only ANVs).[...]

Source given was "google search". A google search of ["Texas Moaner Blues" williams barnes] brings:
1. https://secondhandsongs.com/work/246262/all Fay Barnes
2. https://hitparade.ch/song/Clarence-Williams'-Blue-Five/Texas-Moaner-Blues-1470195#google_vignette Fay Barnes
3. https://www.loc.gov/item/jukebox-674204/ Fay Barnes
and
10. https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/detail/2000204877/S-72719-Texas_moaner_blues Fay Barnes
At least 3. and 10. would have to be considered as reliable sources.

Duchamp163
And how can this PAN be the correct choice

It's the correct choice of the two available PANs.
As I told you before,

mr_mando
If you think it does not correctly represent Maggie Jones's maiden name, please start a forum thread and ask for a PAN change.

I'd like to repeat this advice. Your aggressive diatribes here won't change anything. Please invest your energy in positive things, e.g. a forum thread discussing the PAN change of Fay Barnes to new PAN Fae Barnes. I already gave you all the arguments I found that could your point, but you don't seem to want to use them.

JimmyLewisSeeker
To me, there is more family evidence to point to her being born Maggie Jones than Fae/Faye/Fay Barnes.

I this view based on the findings of Eagle/LeBlanc, who do not rely on hearsay but on primary sources (birth and death certificates and census records).