Mould codes query Uden/swindon 1453, 1429 & Hong Kong? 1Y08

Hi
looking at Richard Ashcroft - Alone With Everybody from 2000 we have 3 subs that we could use expert input on.

I there any discogs clarity about what looks like an EMI Swindon pressing?
Ive read the profiles and remain uncertain. at the moment variant 8 and 14 have the Uden matrices and mastering codes but the ifpi 14** moulds - IFPI 1453 and IFPI 1429
Do we split them off or is the uncetainty over machinery transfer enough to leave as is?

Hong Kong MAYBE!
Variant 11 has matrix and master for Uden but the mould ifpi 1Y08 doesnt seem to be identified as anywhere pressing.
I think I have to split that one but any info on 1Y08 would be useful if its available
Many thanks in advance
BobP

Ping filthythedog

I'd leave variant 8 where it is - see note 5 @ EMI Uden - some may argue that indicates a later repress though.
As for variant 11 *shrug* looks to be glass mastered at Uden maybe something to do with Spin (18), but then I always thought the x-x-x-NL indicated a Uden pressing too.

bobpitman
leave as is

That's my understanding, machinery migrated to Uden before and after closure so it could be an idea to split, but that would only be on the premise of data neatness rather than any actual proof either way.

bobpitman
ifpi 1Y08

Complete outlier. Could be a counterfeit / misread etc. Without any info or confirmation again just leave as is.

bobpitman
ve read the profiles and remain uncertain. at the moment variant 8 and 14 have the Uden matrices and mastering codes but the ifpi 14** moulds - IFPI 1453 and IFPI 1429

I'd be inclined to leave them on the same release as not fully certain and note 5 does imply possible. Maybe the actual release date of the submission was based purley on the copyright date and maybe a later 2002\3 release. Again not known.

bobpitman
Variant 11 has matrix and master for Uden but the mould ifpi 1Y08

I'm more uncertain re that one and not enough evidence on Spin (18) as based on one release (why not more I would say).
Could well be a pirate copy as seems odd that Glass Master stampers sent from UK to HK.
I would likely favour a split for variant 11. Lets see what others think.

ifpi 1Y08 the one I've seen appear to stem quite a number of years back so seems odd never picked up before in the threads.
Various - Tropical Tribute To The Beatles so add a ping in case any revelation.

Sorry, no clew - CDs are a black art to me.

thanks for the so far.
The Cousin_Mosquito who did the research on SPIN

Thank you for the ping, Spin (18) profile comes from the artwork to that CD. At the time, I had a look through the other Spin companies and couldn't find a match.

I added those SID codes to the profile in the hope that they may someday link up with another manufacturer. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything conclusive at the time. "MADE IN HONG KONG" appears in the matrix of that CD, while "CD Design/Replication by Vito Fera, SPIN, Florida" appears on the front insert.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

This list shows Hong Kong matching up with IFPI L751 and IFPI 1Y**: https://wiki.musik-sammler.de/index.php?title=Herstellungsland_(CDs_/_DVDs)

No company listed, unfortunately.

thanks Cousin_Mosquito and everyone else who has replied.
I think the thread has recommended that sub in question keeps the 14** mould code entries but the 1Y** has to split off without deriving any LCCN from the mould code... I think!
any other thoughts amyone?

Cousin_Mosquito
This list shows Hong Kong matching up with IFPI L751 and IFPI 1Y**: https://wiki.musik-sammler.de/index.php?title=Herstellungsland_(CDs_/_DVDs)

bobpitman
1Y** has to split off without deriving any LCCN from the mould code... I think!
any other thoughts amyone?

A curious puzzle. This search shows a a strong correlation with Glass Master L751, quite a few SACD's and a fairly complicated sequential numbering system starting with a 'V'. The other Glass Master code of note is IFPI LQ** which may sometimes be misread as IFPI L0**

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPI1Y+IFPIL&matrix=0

There are also a few where Hong Kong is identified in the matrix and quite a lot of the Netherland releases also include a book.

As you say hard to pin down, but Hong Kong looks to have a part to play - I don't know if they ever had SACD capability though.

Here's one with 1Y50 that is credited to DATA in Australia and has the DATA logo on the disc: Bodyjar - Jarchives: 10 Years Of Bodyjar
Seems unlikely though that this plant pressed a bunch of Dutch releases.

spekem
There are also a few where Hong Kong is identified in the matrix and quite a lot of the Netherland releases also include a book.

Hong Kong is plausible. The releases from the Netherlands are primarily budget mail order/club releases by International Masters Publishers BV. From what I've seen, their discs were often made in Hong Kong (probably budget friendly).

I think we can conclude items with 1Y are definitely not Uden/Mediamotion/Swindon pressings so should be split off.

Here's an advert in Billboard that mentions a candidate:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Billboard-Index/IDX/2006/2006-03-11-Billboard-Page-0029.pdf

Viva Optical Disc Manufacturing Ltd. - would explain the V numbers.

Edit: nevermind, according to https://www.hongkongdir.org/companies/0850548/ they didn't exist before 2003. There are many items that are supposedly from before 2003 though.

jweijde
Edit: nevermind, according to https://www.hongkongdir.org/companies/0850548/ they didn't exist before 2003. There are many items that are supposedly from before 2003 though.

A bit more from wayback - the animated intro for the vivasacd link indicates the company goes way back so let it run rather than skipping and clicking through - though it does block you once the animated intro finishes!

Looks like they did SACD's though https://web.archive.org/web/20040121154010/http://www.vivasacd.com/

https://web.archive.org/web/20021226085542/http://www.viva.com.hk/Home/home.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20021226183338fw_/http://www.viva.com.hk/Home/CD_DVD_Replication/cd_dvd_replication.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20030827221929fw_/http://www.viva.com.hk/Home/About_Us/body_about_us.html
"1994 -first CD replication line installed continued investments in CD replication lines"

https://web.archive.org/web/20021226085542/http://www.viva.com.hk/Home/home.html
This one mentions Viva Magnetics Limited in the header. That company exists since 1975
https://www.l568.com/companies/0042829/

They also had factories in Canada and Poland: https://www.viva.com.hk/about-viva/

Here's a more detailed timeline https://web.archive.org/web/20050306053221/http://viva.com.hk/html/about/timeline/index.htm

jweijde
Here's an advert in Billboard that mentions a candidate:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Billboard-Index/IDX/2006/2006-03-11-Billboard-Page-0029.pdf

Viva Optical Disc Manufacturing Ltd. - would explain the V numbers.

Brilliant finds by the way :)

jweijde
They also had factories in Canada and Poland: https://www.viva.com.hk/about-viva/

AFAICT at some point they got out of the digital disc market and concentrated on packaging.

Do you think it is possible we will be able to create a Label & profile?

The Glass Master SID IFPI LQ** (mainly LQ42) used for SACDs. 'VS' for these.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPILQ4+IFPI&matrix=0

And

IFPI L751 for CD's - 'V' for these. Note also, there are some dyslexic mis keys of the the Optimal Media GM L571 in the list.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIL751+IFPI&matrix=0

[EDIT] also

IFPI LQ48 seems mostly used for DVD's/Enhanced CD's 'VR' for these.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPILQ48+IFPI&matrix=VR

The change to LQ/VR/VS seems to happen around 2003. This coincides with the start of SACD manufacturing and the start of Viva Optical Disc Manufacturing Ltd.
Maybe 'R' is for 'Regular' and 'S' for 'SACD' ?

jweijde
Maybe 'R' is for 'Regular' and 'S' for 'SACD' ?

There are a smattering of 'VR' cases along with a greater number of 'V' cases with 2000 release dates. So difficult to pin down.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIL751+IFPI&matrix=VR&decade=2000

Earliest 'VR' (VR0016) is in 2000 Various - Wraak En Jaloezie.

spekem
Making it likely that the exception is a misread/miskey?

They also seem to have used 01 to 07 so while it is an odd release amongst the EMI ones, it may still be correct.

spekem
There are a smattering of 'VR' cases along with a greater number of 'V' cases with 2000 release dates. So difficult to pin down.

Earliest 'V' (V7073) is in 1998 and includes a matrix scan Various - Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer: The Movie (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack).

PrimeDisc International Ltd. also seems to use LQ

All the research here is great, thanks jweijde
I thought this one was particularly useful.

jweijde

Here's an advert in Billboard that mentions a candidate:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Billboard-Index/IDX/2006/2006-03-11-Billboard-Page-0029.pdf

My mould code is sadly not a misread, its pretty clearly stamped.
I'm not sure of the approval process of how we go about adding a manufacturing plant and some useful guides to attributing it in subs but the above research all looks solidly linked to me.
I've taken a draft for ssplitting my HK press with a uden glass so caan create it via that submission if the above research is sufficient to it
I have scans to do so its not going to be today I sub it but I can do it fairly quickly if theres agreement and some instructions about what needs to go in

jweijde
PrimeDisc International Ltd. also seems to use LQ

At a quick look LQ20 is common. Their discs also having a different matrix format and no indication they did sacd's.

bobpitman
I've taken a draft for ssplitting my HK press with a uden glass so caan create it via that submission if the above research is sufficient to it

1Y08 in particular is looking more like a UDEN press code Bob, so it might be more a case of updating the UDEN profile to include it?

spekem
bobpitman. 1Y08 appears with EMI Uden cases with only 1 exception[ r26001325]. Making it likely that the exception is a misread/miskey?

https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=ifpi1y08+ifpil&matrix=0

spekem
1Y08 in particular is looking more like a UDEN press code Bob, so it might be more a case of updating the UDEN profile to include it?

It's way too uncommon for it to be a EMI Uden machine. I mean, they would have used it for about three years and less than a dozen releases are known, while EMI Uden was a major plant. Seems more likely EMI placed a few orders at Viva, maybe because they didn't have their own plant there or not enough capacity.
Otherwise, IMP would have let Viva make the glass master of 26001325 and have it sent over from HK to NL to have the disc pressed at EMI Uden. That doesn't make a lot of sense when you're in a budget industry and many of your other releases are pressed in Hong Kong already. Plus, EMI Uden also made glass masters at the time, so why have them sent over from Hong Kong then in the first place?

jweijde
It's way too uncommon for it to be a EMI Uden machine. I mean, they would have used it for about three years and less than a dozen releases are known, while EMI Uden was a major plant. Seems more likely EMI placed a few orders at Viva, maybe because they didn't have their own plant there or not enough capacity.

Yes, makes sense.

[Edit] Do you know at which point in the process the 'x-x-x-NL stamp is applied? The UDEN profile advises that- x-x-x-NL identifies the stampers (father-mother-daughter).

bobpitman
I'm not sure of the approval process of how we go about adding a manufacturing plant and some useful guides to attributing it in subs but the above research all looks solidly linked to me.

The key for me is that we know Viva did SACD's and there were only very limited plants worldwide that did this and more than one in Hong Kong seems very unlikely.

I'm not aware of other unknown manufacturer SACD matrix's out there.

I do have a Viva(?) SACD in my collection and there are no hints on the packaging or Disc label Snow Patrol - Final Straw.

I had a bit of a trawl through the Hong Kong released SACD's for 2002 to 2008 and frustratingly matrix scans are beyond uncommon! Packaging though (if it is mentioned at all) indicates EU/US/JP made SACD's.

Hoping Cl0ver might have a view.

Edited to mention L0 and L1
Edited again to add The HD recorded Layer 0 (closest to the read-out surface)

spekem
I had a bit of a trawl through the Hong Kong released SACD's for 2002 to 2008 and frustratingly matrix scans are beyond uncommon! Packaging though (if it is mentioned at all) indicates EU/US/JP made SACD's.

LINN Records SACDs were often farmed out to a manufacturer used those Mastering SID and often the Mould SID was IFPI EVxx
There should scans of the matricies (to a fashion) on Claire Martin, Richard Rodney Bennett - When Lights Are Low
and this one Martin Taylor - Artistry that has Mould SID IFPI 1Y58

To be honest even after speaking with Linn I never reall found out who the plant was so the Viva seems interesting.
LINN when thgey still did physical SACD releases then 2006 forward appeared to use Sony DADC. Sony DADC had no aknowledged knowlege of the codes use above.
Also I'm assuming that on these, like dual layer DVDs nomenclature, that L0 is the first layer (so the SACD layer) The HD recorded Layer 0 (closest to the read-out surface) and L1 is the second layer (so CD layer) To me also the IFPI 1Y58 ones look like the two halfs are pressed in a single mould , hence only seeing a single Mould SID like the Sony DADC ones. The EVxx Mould SIDs ones seem to have two Mould SIDs which suggest the more common procedure that the likes of Sonopress used, bonding the two halves from seperate moulds.

and the VSxxx matrix codes on the SACDs at least look sequential

spekem
1Y08 in particular is looking more like a UDEN press code Bob, so it might be more a case of updating the UDEN profile to include it?

I still would be inclined not to credit that Moulds SID as one of Udens on such a small sample size.

Cl0ver
LINN Records SACDs were often farmed out to a manufacturer used those Mastering SID and often the Mould SID was IFPI EVxx

......Mr Linn must be a very coy fellow. All you see is "Made In The EU" printed on the rear insert of his SACD's.

Yeah mould SID EVxx, turns up a bit and in widely distributed locations too https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&barcode=IFPIEV+IFPIL&matrix=0

This one Made in Hong Kong on disc label/printed in Canada: Patrick Zimmerli - Phoenix.
This one "MADE IN HONG KONG" in matrix/printed in China: Various - Best Of The Blues

.....Things certainly point to Hong Kong.

Earliest 'VS' number (VS006) could be this one, albeit with GM code misread Bløf - Omarm.

Another GM SID misread, Manufactured In Hong Kong on disc label and tray insert Anthony Newman, The Graham Ashton Brass Ensemble* With Duncan Patton - Music For Organ, Brass And Timpani.

A couple of what could be very early 'V' numbers Unknown Artist - Country Sunrise / あたらしい朝

spekem
Earliest 'VS' number (VS006) could be this one

This article ties in with dates of these VS ones.
https://www.highfidelityreview.com/viva-launches-hybrid-sacd-plant-in-hong-kong-hfr.html

In Hong Kong post 2005 the main companies ditched SACD except a few smaller companies. I think Viva would have been classified as a larger player.
So any pre 2003 SACDs not likely to be Viva.
Also many misreads of IFPI LQ4x as IFPI L04x possible.

Cl0ver
This article ties in with dates of these VS ones.
https://www.highfidelityreview.com/viva-launches-hybrid-sacd-plant-in-hong-kong-hfr.html

Brilliant - Yup, matches up pretty much perfectly. The 'VS' SACD's only start in 2003 and they ended in 2005.

[Edit] This grab from the article also says they were the first plant in SEA outside Japan.

"Viva’s decision also recognizes the growth of the SACD format in the Hong Kong and Far East markets where 4 of the 5 major record label groups (Universal, Sony, BMG and Warner) are releasing SACD discs. Viva’s Hong Kong facility will be the first SACD production center in the Asia-Pacific region excluding Japan."

spekem
Linn must be a very coy fellow. All you see is "Made In The EU" printed on the rear insert of his SACD's.

Linn would never say another country as they do that will all products, like their first tonearms and cartridges were designed by them and possibly assembled by them but made in Japan. They never printed that even though most knew.

We have Various - RS|500 that clearly states on the SACD face Manufactured in Hong Kong by Viva SACD Ltd. So I guess that profile can be use once ratified?
Well that release shows Mould SID codes IFPI LYxx only so still a question mark over Mould SID IFPI EVxx being the same plant.
The Glass Mastering seems more clear cut.

Cl0ver
So I guess that profile can be use once ratified?

It sure would have my vote :)

And that should help validate the creation of another label for the CD/DVD side of Viva Magnetics Limited?

spekem
And that should help validate the creation of another label for the CD/DVD side of Viva Magnetics Limited?

I guess so. They seem to have been quite a big player so good to track them down.

spekem
Cl0ver
So I guess that profile can be use once ratified?

and although the other one on that that profile Various - 環球群星鑑聽錄 - Super Audio CD Sampler has no SID codes entered there is a clear 'Pressed By' statement on the back cover.
It sure would have my vote :)

Cl0ver
So any pre 2003 SACDs not likely to be Viva.

Confirmed by the timeline here: https://web.archive.org/web/20050306053221/http://viva.com.hk/html/about/timeline/index.htm

"2003 - Installed first SACD replication line".

Cl0ver
We have Viva SACD Ltd.

That company existed from September 2002 to February 2011: https://www.l568.com/companies/0815861/

jweijde
Confirmed by the timeline here: https://web.archive.org/web/20050306053221/http://viva.com.hk/html/about/timeline/index.htm

and on the timeline they say 2004 Increased SACD replication capacity by 100%
So (and only took a small sample so far) I wonder if they had the IFPI LYxx Mould SIDs first and when expanded introduced the additiion of the IFPI EVxx ones to their replication line.

Cl0ver
So (and only took a small sample so far) I wonder if they had the IFPI LYxx Mould SIDs first and when expanded introduced the additiion of the IFPI EVxx ones to their replication line.

That seems likely.

......Thinking about Labels some more.

I was thinking that it would be better to have only one label and use the consistent brand + location (as opposed to company names) for that - say 'Viva, Hong Kong' and DNU the Viva SACD label that currently exists.

Then all the information and guidance around roles for CD's, SACD's etc. would go in the one place.

spekem
I was thinking that it would be better to have only one label and use the consistent brand + location (as opposed to company names) for that - say 'Viva, Hong Kong' and DNU the Viva SACD label that currently exists.

The company was founded as Viva Magnetics Ltd as far as I can tell and Viva SACD Ltd was a company branch to exclusively deal with SACD production. Not sure if separate company records were kept as no HK company registraion to use to check.
Maybe brownjai could assist re that.

If forcing a name then Maybe Viva Magnetics, Hong Kong would be a better fit as I think the Viva Group now has brached out into the Beauty or otherwise works (not fully sure of that).
I don't know how many of the ealt SACDs have the Viva SACD Ltd name printed and maybe they dropped that at some point to appear more global.

Best approach would be to use Viva, Hong Kong I think.
That entry can then be used for all items with 'V-numbers'. When a release mentions a company like Viva SACD Ltd. then an additional credit can be given for that company.
There's also Viva Magnetics Ltd. and Viva Optical Disc Manufacturing Ltd. so going by company names only probably over complicates things.

I think it's best to use 'Viva, Hong Kong' for the pressing credit when we know it's definitely this plant that did the pressing, but if there is a specific legal entity mentioned then this should also be credited, i.e. don't remove any releases from the 'Viva SACD Ltd.' page as this company is clearly printed on the releases.

I've just updated the Viva SACD Ltd. page with its basic corporate info, per the HK Registry. Not sure if other s can view the weblink added to the label page as my HKID was needed, but it may work for others too.