[DONE] Merge PANs Bill Lovelady & William Lovelady

Cousin_Mosquito
William Lovelady

Merge to this PAN ed.

First bump.

Cousin_Mosquito
Greetings,

Any objections to merging all credits with necessary ANVs under William Lovelady?

Merge to PAN William Lovelady ed

Another bump.

One more bump.

I’d be curious what the actual printed credits show. I don't see any ANVs to "William" on the Bill profile and that seems to have the vast majority of credits. I think we should retain Bill since it doesn't appear to be wrong and at a glance on my phone seems to be the most widely used version.

I agree a merge is in order. If the consensus is to use William I won't object, but I don't see the need for going that direction.

baldorr
I’d be curious what the actual printed credits show. I don't see any ANVs to "William" on the Bill profile and that seems to have the vast majority of credits. I think we should retain Bill since it doesn't appear to be wrong and at a glance on my phone seems to be the most widely used version.

Fair point. It does look like his more pop-related material is as "Bill Lovelady" while his classical music is under "William Lovelady." While the pop material forms a small portion of his career in of years, it definitely seems to be greater in of items in Discogs.

I am fine with merging in either direction. I picked "William Lovelady" because that's the name that comes up in online searches, it's how his name appears on his catalogue of non-popular sheet music, and his official website.

From the wikipedia link above, you can see that the article makes a point of him going by "Bill Lovelady" during the period from roughly 1979 through the Oasis (13) era, which produced one album in 1984.

Pinging some other people for opinions:

borderes

In the past we might have kept them separate as 'delineated' parts of his career but since that type of wording has been deliberately removed from the guidelines, I certainly think a merge is now required.

I think I'll go with Bill Lovelady as the surviving PAN, just because with respect to the releases that have been submitted here he's better known that way.

I understand why he'd prefer the other name for his, more recent, classical work.. and I think that fact is worth highlighting in the profile, so that those looking specifically for that part of his career might choose to look first at that/those ANV/s.

Cousin_Mosquito
artist prefers

Not usually a consideration ......
There are 19 William or W Lovelady credits including misspellings.
There are 142 Bill, Billy or B Lovelady credits including misspellings.
The balance are surname only.

Sorry! I think we should retain Bill.

TopCats45s
There are 19 William or W Lovelady credits including misspellings.
There are 142 Bill, Billy or B Lovelady credits including misspellings.

Thank you GBrady, are you okay with Bill Lovelady as the PAN, reversing what I originally proposed, based on a more thorough analysis of the credits?

Artist preference usually is a very important factor in determining the most relevant PAN when an artist has used multiple stage names (as here). It's how THEY are presenting themselves to the world now, and normally I'd honor their preference since fans of their current music will not be looking for a name that was used 50 years ago.

Using SUB counts as the sole metric for determining the PAN is somewhat simplistic. Especially here, where the bulk of the Bill Lovelady credits are songwriting credits (often for same song). Eliminate those credits and the counts are not nearly as unbalanced. And, all the appearance credits involve two songs which have been compiled many times.

Can't really go wrong here, but I'm leaning to William since Mr. Google doesn't show much of a difference and he's clearly rebranded himself in every way.

BTW; he's William on Facebook as well

https://www.facebook.com/william.lovelady.167/

Cousin_Mosquito
I have no problem with keeping Bill Lovelady as the PAN

^ This, exactly :o)

dclubok
Artist preference usually is a very important factor in determining the most relevant PAN when an artist has used multiple stage names (as here).

While there is some merit to this argument, I wouldn't consider the difference between William and Bill to be a substantial differentiating factor.

Maybe something like Fats Domino vs. Antoine Domino is more a situation where one is clearly a stage name vs his real name. And in that case we decided those can be merged. I just don't see a substantive difference between Bill and William here, regardless of how he prefers his name currently. Who know when he might prefer Bill again. Hence we should use the data we have for determining ratio of credits.

dclubok
Artist preference usually is a very important factor in determining the most relevant PAN when an artist has used multiple stage names (as here). It's how THEY are presenting themselves to the world now, and normally I'd honor their preference since fans of their current music will not be looking for a name that was used 50 years ago.

This.

The "Bill" listings end in 2014. The "William" ones in 2019. Is he still active? If yes...

TopCats45s
There are 19 William or W Lovelady credits including misspellings.
There are 142 Bill, Billy or B Lovelady credits including misspellings.

...the today balance can dramatically change in the future.

tzes666
...the today balance can dramatically change in the future.

So what's interesting here is - we can't ever predict the future, so:

a) we should only go by what we currently see (Bill); but
b) an argument could then be made that since we actually don't know the future, we should consider using the most complete name (William)

Ultimately, the ratios could could definitely change over time and if we do actually see a huge number of releases now for William, then I think it's worth having the discussion about a PAN swap from Bill to William. But it could just as easily sway back again (maybe not in this specific case, but in general). That's why I tend to think we should always just go with what we currently know.

baldorr
it could just as easily sway back again

Bear in mind that we are discussing about a man in his 80s. Sway back when? In his 90s? ☺️

All of this discussion is good. If this helps sway anyone's opinion, from the Biography section of his website, after the first paragraph (in which he is called "William" once), he is repeatedly called "Bill" (a total of four times) - I think we are safe with that PAN. And then, as baldorr points out, should the ratio significantly shift, we could always revisit.

https://williamlovelady.co.uk/pages/about-us

Breaking down the votes at this point, no one objects to a merge.

1) Keep andygrayrecords

2) Keep GBrady (maybe you will change your mind)

dclubok
Artist preference usually is a very important factor in determining the most relevant PAN when an artist has used multiple stage names (as here). It's how THEY are presenting themselves to the world now, and normally I'd honor their preference since fans of their current music will not be looking for a name that was used 50 years ago.
BTW; he's William on Facebook as well

I would have also thought to use William Lovelady, since this is the name that he is preferring now, but....

miss_me_when_im_gone
I think I'll go with Bill Lovelady as the surviving PAN, just because with respect to the releases that have been submitted here, he's better known that way.

+1, merge to primary name Bill Lovelady.

Artists wishes my ass, has never been a reason before to ignore such a clear majority of credits.

TopCats45s
[…] we should retain Bill.

+1

tzes666
baldorrit could just as easily sway back again
Bear in mind that we are discussing about a man in his 80s. Sway back when? In his 90s? ☺️

Right. But you suggested it would sway towards William. I’m saying we should just use the data which here seems pretty straightforward.

typoman2
Artists wishes my ass, has never been a reason before to ignore such a clear majority of credits.

Yeah, exactly this. Bill +1

typoman2
Artists wishes my ass, has never been a reason before to ignore such a clear majority of credits.

TopCats45s[…] we should retain Bill.
+1

My arse too. Most frequently used gets it

typoman2
Artists wishes my ass

avalon67
My arse too.

Without the artists (I include here all in Discogs sense, from tunesmiths to engineers and everyone credited on releases) and their wishes, this database would not exist. We owe at least a minimal amount of respect to them (and their wishes). After all, it is them you serve here, by documenting and cataloguing their works.
With that said, I'm clearly for "William".

tzes666
After all, it is them you serve here,

We're not here to serve anyone, we're cataloguing releases as they appear.

I'm firmly in the "Bill" camp.
That's where most of his credits are, and how most people know him.

Bumping one more time. At this point, we're at 10 votes for keeping the Bill Lovelady PAN, and 3 votes for keeping the William Lovelady PAN.

Unless that count radically changes in the next 24 hours or so, I'll begin these edits in a couple of days.

This project is complete. Thank you everyone.