RESOLVED: Split artist King Curtis & The Kingpins

I'd like to propose splitting King Curtis & The Kingpins, invalidating that profile and creating a The Kingpins artist profile. Releases crediting "King Curtis & The Kingpins" would then revised with a dual Main Artist credit for both King Curtis and his band, The Kingpins.

Reason for this is that the King Curtis & The Kingpins artist page contains two ANVs that are not correct:
- King Curtis / The Kingpins* - Memphis Soul Stew / Ode To Billie Joe.
- Rufus Thomas - Crown Prince Of Dance. (Saxophonist Dupree took over leadership of the group after Curtis' death in 1970)

Obviously these ANVs are not correct for the PAN, and the Atco/Atlantic 45 singles show that the Kingpins were billed a performing group in their own right, apart from King Curtis.

Calling the SuperEditors from my Cave on the Coast: fishbulb .

(By the way if anyone wants off my pinglist, please let me know.)

Showbiz_Kid
Split artist King Curtis & The Kingpins

All good.

Showbiz_Kid
The Kingpins, credited solo on several 45 RPM issues

Strange: The Kingpins on Ode To Billie Joe.
King Curtis was in the group The Kingpins (till he died that is). So in theory, it's a valid ANV.
It's mainly Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins credit.
Maybe just create new group for the Cornell release? I'm really on the fence here.

Showbiz_Kid
Saxophonist Dupree

Surely guitarist??

TopCats45s
King Curtis & The Kingpins on Ode To Billie Joe.
King Curtis was in the group

Confirming this, I was going to say the same

Please remove me from your ping list

Split! Split! Split!

A split sounds reasonable.

dunforthemoment
Surely guitarist??

Er… yeah :)

TopCats45s
Strange: The Kingpins on Ode To Billie Joe and King Curtis & The Kingpins on Ode To Billie Joe.
King Curtis was in the group The Kingpins (till he died that is). So in theory, it's a valid ANV.

Which can be covered by the split. It is an odd situation; some releases show King cCurtis & The Kingpins, others just The Kingpins. Either way, we can’t assume we know why Atlantic chose to do this and should record it the way it’s presented.

There should possibly be more listed, such as Purdie and sometimes Clapton, etc.

Showbiz_Kid
can’t assume we know why Atlantic chose to do this

Yeah, I get that. But if it's a Gary Puckett & The Union Gap situation? Where occasionally credited as just "The Union Gap"? Same band, until King ed away and then the band name changed to Cornell's? Just food for thought.

sebfact
A split sounds reasonable.

+1

no to splitting

create a new PAN called 'The Kingpins' for
Rufus Thomas - Crown Prince Of Dance and use an ANV for it.

Is this the only SUB the group had without King Curtis?

dclubok
Is this the only SUB the group had without King Curtis?

Yeah, and it needs it's own PAN for sure. Only I think maybe "Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins".

And agree to no split to "King Curtis & The Kingpins". I mean, think of Gary Puckett, Diana Ross, Smokey Robinson, etc., etc., do we really want to go back to that artificial splitting?

TopCats45s
And agree to no split to "King Curtis & The Kingpins". I mean, think of Gary Puckett, Diana Ross, Smokey Robinson, etc., etc., do we really want to go back to that artificial splitting?

This +1

"Ode to Billie Joe" was the first time The Kingpins name was used on a record. Maybe ATCO were just confused whether to go with a new artist name or use King Curtis with it.

Makes no sense to split them.

sebfact
A split sounds reasonable.

+1

Showbiz_Kid
Obviously these ANVs are not correct for the PAN, and the Atco/Atlantic 45 singles show that the Kingpins were billed a performing group in their own right, apart from King Curtis.

Agree to split.

The analogue here is somewhat the same as like for example in Katrina & The Waves.
On their first records it was just The Waves, then Katrina & The Waves. Katrina herself was part of The Waves as well as Katrina & The Waves. Not split.
King Curtis was part of The Kingpins as well as King Curtis & The Kingpins.

The Kingpins was used only one time in the very first recording of that particular bunch ("Ode To Billie Joe") in September 1967 and from the next single onwards (November 1967) it was King Curtis & the Kingpins.

darksurprise
King Curtis was part of The Kingpins

Exactly.

Then how do we deal with Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins?

Showbiz_Kid
Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins

OP was to create a new group "The Kingpins"
Alternative is to create a new group "Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins"
I guess either way is good. Both Curtis & Cornell were of The Kingpins - so this is rather sticky ain't it?

TopCats45s
rather sticky

Like a sidewalk full of chewing gum on a summer day.

I agree that Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins is more problematic.
At this point I would go for new PAN "Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins".

I looked at the reissues of https://www.discogs.sie.com/master/153342-Rufus-Thomas-Crown-Prince-Of-Dance to see whether they'd have sessions details. It seems that some CDs have them, but the CD versions don't have complete scans at the moment,
This one https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/3622168-Rufus-Thomas-Crown-Prince-Of-Dance says
"Some guessing there by the re-issue linernotes about the line-up of musicians in this severals sessions between August 2, 1971 and August 6, 1973. But the info given on the back-cover of the original record seems to have been almost completely incorrect."

Curiously, August 2, 1971 was less than two weeks before King Curtis' death, but the available info doesn't specify which tracks were recorded on which dates.

I was looking at the original 1973 promo cover wich lists a “Rhythm” credit for Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins.

https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/3959756-Rufus-Thomas-Crown-Prince-Of-Dance/image/SW1hZ2U6NTE3NzE5OTA=

well, I guess when the label releases a best-of, it's a valid group name...?
King Curtis & The Kingpins - The Best Of King Curtis & The Kingpins
so no for splitting

So it sounds like we're going to
1) Retain King Curtis & The Kingpins and the ANV "The Kingpins" for the Atco 45 releases, and
2) Create "Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins" for the Rufus Thomas credit.

Yes?

Done and dusted:
- King Curtis & The Kingpins remain unsplit, with "The Kingpins" retained as ANV on those 45 releases.
- Cornell Dupree & The Kingpins created for the (so far only) credit that appears.

Thank you!