Pressing Plant IDs for Canadian Atlantic releases

I note that there are single letters below the label matrix on many Atlantic releases from Canada.

I presume that these are Pressing Plant IDs and thought that they should be added to the Atlantic profile along with all the others which are there, if they can be identified.

C = https://www.discogs.sie.com/port-Garden-Of-Eden/release/4945409#images/10033195

CR = https://www.discogs.sie.com/Billy-Cobham-The-Best-Of-Billy-Cobham/release/2207761#images/10249159

I = ? https://www.discogs.sie.com/Foreigner-Women/release/9075333#images/30947799

Q = https://www.discogs.sie.com/Spinners-Working-My-Way-Back-To-You/release/1722263#images/7763545

R = ? https://www.discogs.sie.com/ABBA-Voulez-Vous/release/12406446#images/35764271
also on cassettes: https://www.discogs.sie.com/City-Boy-The-Day-The-Earth-Caught-Fire/release/12576777#images/36322776

Have I got them id'd correctly?

Have a look at Section 4 of the master list of common runout groove etchings (it's way down, near the bottom). Subsection 1.9 there has Canadian releases, but there might be others in other parts of that section.

If there are any in your list above that aren't covered in that master list, post a link to this discussion in that thread, asking people who know about pressing plant IDs to check your list here for you.

These are all correct and listed in the runout thread as mentioned by andrenafulva except for "I"

The "I" is not clear, it appears after MCA shut down and I've also seen it on presses with Q/Qu in the runouts and with the CR stamp/etch too.

Also, they are on the WEA Music Of Canada, Ltd. profile as they were used across all WEA (Warner Elektra Atlantic) brands.

The codes are also inconsistent with regard to format and age. There are also a few which don't have any identifier. WEA briefly went to Capitol Records-EMI Of Canada Limited for vinyl production around 1982-1983; these have no plant ID but can be identified by the pressing ring and typesetting. There are a couple of others for which I have no idea.

For cassettes:
CB: duplicated by CBS Records Canada Ltd. (not common, WEA usually went to Cinram or Capitol)
c (lower case), or : duplicated by Capitol Records-EMI Of Canada Limited
Some Cinram cassettes use "CI" instead of "CR"
D: unknown (older releases, also 8-tracks, seems to have stopped around 1980 or 1981)

Ref: MCA pressings above, perhaps Keel Record Mfg. Of Canada Limited pressing plant?
Keel eg: Theme From "Love Story" Played By The Melachrino Strings

My list above is taken from 1979 releases.

brunorepublic
WEA briefly went to Capitol Records-EMI Of Canada Limited for vinyl production around 1982-1983; these have no plant ID but can be identified by the pressing ring and typesetting.

i also should have mentioned I've seen "I" labels on Capitol pressings too, even with the target logo - but very rarely and only in early 80s so that lines up with this.

Maybe "I" was used as a catch-all code on labels for whatever overflow plant WEA happened to need to use? They knew they needed 2K copies pressed in addition to the suppliers already confirmed but hadn't firmed up which plant will do them and they needed labels printed up and ready to go? "I"ndeterminate plant?

Madturtle3
Ref: MCA pressings above, perhaps Keel Record Mfg. Of Canada Limited pressing plant?

When MCA closed down the Cornwall plant, their pressings were handled by Keel and Precision.

cheebacheebakid
The "I" is not clear, it appears after MCA shut down and I've also seen it on presses with Q/Qu in the runouts and with the CR stamp/etch too.

I was thinking the I may have referenced "In House".

WEA didn't have in house facilities. All of their product was pressed/duplicated by suppliers.

cheebacheebakid
"I"ndeterminate plant?

That's clever!

It's a wild guess. I used to think it maybe meant "Independent" for any plant other than Cinram, Quality, CBS (like Keel or IRC) but it appears so often on labels with their usual big 3 main supplier presser identifiers in runouts that I nixed that idea.

brunorepublic
D: unknown (older releases, also 8-tracks, seems to have stopped around 1980 or 1981)

World Records (3) ?

Dynapak Music Services?

Stereodyne's format was trademarked dyna-pak, when Stereodyne dissolved in 1980 they had the same address as Dynapak at 3121 Universal Dr Mississauga

Madturtle3
World Records (3) ?

Don't think so; I don't know that they actually manufactured anything. AFAIK they were merely a broker for small indie labels and private pressings.

From some research I did a while back I'm pretty sure the manufactured cassettes. What you say about the broker is true for the vinyl.

Here's an odd R Pressing Plant ID:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/5862245-Highway-To-Hell/history#latest

Stereodyne/Dynapak were the first cassette dupe service one of the biggest duplicators in Canada - they also did GRT, Polydor, Allied as well as Warner/Kinney/WEA (RPM March 3, 1973 pg 6 "$3 Million Year for Stereodyne"). They were also the first Canadian company to mould the plastic shells and cartridges in Canada.

The large-scale cassette duplicators in Canada were them and CBS (CB), Capitol (c), Cinram (CI/CR), Quality and Ampex (not sure Ampex ever did any for Warner/Kinney/WEA though).

Madturtle3
Here's an odd R Pressing Plant ID:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/release/5862245-Highway-To-Hell/history#latest

Looks like a Smith Falls ring, probably metal parts prepped at Cinram.

cheebacheebakid
Looks like a Smith Falls ring, probably metal parts prepped at Cinram.

Cinram pressings from the early 80s appear to have the same ring as Smiths Falls. My guess -- and it's just a guess -- is that they bought RCA's equipment when the Smiths Falls plant was closed in 1979, and likewise did the same with Quality in 1985, which seems to coincide with both their pressing ring changing to what Quality had from about 1982 onward, as well as them becoming a key supplier to some of the majors for both vinyl and cassettes.

cheebacheebakid
Stereodyne/Dynapak were the first cassette dupe service one of the biggest duplicators in Canada - they also did GRT, Polydor, Allied as well as Warner/Kinney/WEA (RPM March 3, 1973 pg 6 "$3 Million Year for Stereodyne"). They were also the first Canadian company to mould the plastic shells and cartridges in Canada.

Could well be them. The "D" would correspond nicely to Dynapak. I have no idea though.
"I" is the one I'm really curious about, since WEA used it so much in the early 80s. I also see the same typesetting and pressing ring on a number of Québec labels from the era too.

brunorepublic
they bought RCA's equipment when the Smiths Falls plant was closed in 1979

So quite likely a pressing on the cusp of the buyout? CR added to the runout but old label stock used?

brunorepublic
Cinram pressings from the early 80s appear to have the same ring as Smiths Falls. My guess -- and it's just a guess -- is that they bought RCA's equipment when the Smiths Falls plant was closed in 1979

I saw this was 1979, it would likely be later than 1979 if Cinram using old RCA presses and reusing old RCA label blanks inventory.

Madturtle3
From some research I did a while back I'm pretty sure the manufactured cassettes.

My mistake:
1969-70 Billboard Buyers Guide:
Cartridge 8-tr. & cassette: Stone -licensed to
Stereodyne. (SEE MENT)

Lists the labels that Stereodyne in duplicating in Canada
Billboard Oct. 5, 1968, Page S5
https://books.google.ca/books?id=wgoEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA35-IA6&dq=billboard+Stereodyne+1970+robert+stone&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyiczmxqDiAhXMmuAKHf5sBa4Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=billboard%20Stereodyne%201970%20robert%20stone&f=false

brunorepublic
I have no idea though.
"I" is the one I'm really curious about, since WEA used it so much in the early 80s. I also see the same typesetting and pressing ring on a number of Québec labels from the era too.

There is one manufacturer that I can not find any info on but they reported to Stats Can as a vinyl record manufacturer: Impact Records Mfg. Co. of Canada located somewhere in Ontario.

If you check out http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/9.854740/publication.html you can actually see monthly stats on how many records and tapes were sold by province each month for almost two decades. They are listed as a reporting firm and is the only firm in the Stats Can reports that does not yet have an entry already at Discogs.

They are inlcuded in the Stats Can report for most of the 70s and some of the 80s but haven't gone through all the 200 odd reports to confirm when they started reporting and when they finished (18 years of monthly reports),

Better link:
http://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2018/statcan/47-004/CS47-004-10-12.pdf

Interesting that they are in Ajax. Only other Ajax, Ont. firm on that list is Pickwick.

And as a complete aside; It's amazing what you find searching the interweb:
http://www.theoldvinylfactory.com/

Madturtle3
Better link:
http://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2018/statcan/47-004/CS47-004-10-12.pdf

Yes, that's one of the 190 reports available at the link I posted, it gives an idea what the monthly reports that StasCan started in 1973 look like but includes the city of the firms.

I had ruled out IRC because from what I could tell the "I" code was in use before they opened in '81.

I hadn't realized Pickwick manufactured records in Ajax begining in 1965. Not that that helps the "I" code.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=YykEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA43&dq=billboard+record+manufacturing+1965+ajax&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX8Ofb6KDiAhWFv1kKHQUfCBUQ6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=billboard%20record%20manufacturing%201965%20ajax&f=false
and
https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iIEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA10&dq=billboard+Impact+Records+Mfg+Ajax&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOqNW726DiAhUiT98KHfj4BBYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=billboard%20Impact%20Records%20Mfg%20Ajax&f=false

Yep, Pickwick Records Of Canada Ltd.. Similar to how Keel Hauppage in US was owned by US Pickwick.

cheebacheebakid
I had ruled out IRC because from what I could tell the "I" code was in use before they opened in '81.

Also, IRC was in BC. Unlike in the US, Canadian labels didn't split up production to different plants by geographic region AFAIK, as the market was too small to justify the logistical efficiency. Second, I've seen the same distinct typesetting on a lot of Québec-based labels, and since most of those had little or no distribution outside eastern Canada, it stands to reason it would be somewhere in or near Québec.

brunorepublic
it stands to reason it would be somewhere in or near Québec.

Well, Ontario is next door to Quebec but I just learned London Records Of Canada (1967) Ltd. started a Montreal pressing plant in 1975, which is the year MCA shut down Cornwall (where London had previously pressed, also pressed there when it was Compo). It was apparently the first Canadian plant to press small-hole 45s starting in 1976.

RPM Aug 30, 1975 pg 3 "London Excitement High Over Jacks' New Single"
http://rpmimages.3345.ca/pdfs/Volume+24+No.+1+-+August+30%2C+1975.pdf
"...the first pressing from London's new pressing plant"

RPM Jan 8, 1977 pg 10 "RPM Looks Back & Reviews 1976"
http://rpmimages.3345.ca/pdfs/Volume+26+No.+14+%26+15+-+January+8%2C+1977.pdf
"New 45s appear with a small hole - a European concept introduced by London's new Montreal pressing plant."

It would also correspond to the connection Madturtle3 made to MCA, maybe MCA had theirs pressed at London in Montreal after they shut Cornwall (a switcheroo between client and pressing company).

That's very interesting. Terry Jacks - Holly

cheebacheebakid
It was apparently the first Canadian plant to press small-hole 45s starting in 1976.

I think that must be 1975 based on the release noted. If you look at the image it's been dinked.

Madturtle3
I think that must be 1975 based on the release noted. If you look at the image it's been dinked.

Yes, that release was the first release pressed at London's new plant in 1975.

RPM had an article June 5, 1976 pg 3 "Taking A Look At the Hole In The 45"
http://rpmimages.3345.ca/pdfs/Volume+25+No.+10+-+June+5%2C+1976.pdf

It states the new London plant used equipment from UK which had dinkable centres. I would think the 1976 year in review article from 1977 was recapping the June 1976 article about same thing (dinkable centres with small holes) rather than actual solid centres with small holes debuting in June 1976.

Based on these searches I would say you are correct since I see lots of dinked and dinkables but no solid centres
1975
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&label=London&format=7%22&country=Canada&year=1975
1976
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?format=7%22&country=Canada&year=1976&type=all&page=2&label=London

brunorepublic
Second, I've seen the same distinct typesetting on a lot of Québec-based labels

Do label images in this search have similar typesteeting:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&label=London&format=7%22&country=Canada&year=1975

Here's a particularly clear example showing press rings as well
https://img.discogs.sie.com/V6E7YpQu5H5xMfcmqQM8xxewg=/fit-in/600x599/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9551700-1482581219-6319.jpeg.jpg

Looking at the dinkable 45s, it looks like the all have (P) for copyright when one appears while the standard hole 45s use ℗

For the most part but looks like not always
1975 ZZ Top - Tush with ℗
1976 L.J. Johnson - Ain't No Values On Your Love with ℗
1977 ZZ Top - Arrested For Driving While Blind with ℗

London pressings are pretty distinctive. The LPs use the slightly-smaller 7” label size.

dinkable 1975 ZZ Top - Tush with ℗
dinkable 1975 ZZ Top - Tush with (P)

I'm certainly not an expert but the labels on these look the same to me:
dinkable 1977 ZZ Top - Arrested For Driving While Blind with ℗
standard 1977 ZZ Top - Arrested For Driving While Blind with ℗

Warner Bros. title pressed at London: Candi Staton - House Of Love
Seems WEA didn't use them much.

brunorepublic stumbled across some new info that may help. Although not conclusive, at some point Cinram added 6 vinyl presses to their original Montreal tape plant
Billboard January 24, 1981 pg Canada Supplement C-9 "Maritimes & Quebec" (link to PDF)

This would correspond to brunorepublic's Quebec observations. Perhaps the "I" code is for the Montreal plant with the "CR" code used for the Scarborough plant? And maybe the CI indicator on cassettes is for tapes duped at the Montreal plant?

Also this RPM article confirms that Cinram moved all vinyl pressing equipment it bought from Quality in November 1985 to the Scarborough plant:
RPM September 19, 1987 pg "Cinram's Revenue Doubles Over Two Year Period" (link to PDF)

I still think "I" refers to a different company entirely, and Impact seems the most likely one.

I'm thinking the six presses Cinram added in 1981 were originally from RCA's plant in Smiths Falls, as they have the same pressing ring. Later Cinram pressings share the same pressing rings as Quality's post-1982ish releases, which makes sense now that we can confirm Cinram bought Quality's equipment.

brunorepublic
I still think "I" refers to a different company entirely, and Impact seems the most likely one.

If it helps, Impact started in Ajax a couple months after Pickwick (Keel) in Ajax filed for bankruptcy protection, so my gut tells me it's likely the same plant.

brunorepublic
I'm thinking the six presses Cinram added in 1981 were originally from RCA's plant in Smiths Falls, as they have the same pressing ring.

I need to look closer, but the Cinram Montreal presses were functional after the London presses closed - is it possible the presses from the London plant that opened in Montreal in 75 are the ones at Cinram in Montreal? It's not certain the CInram presses in Mtl started in 1981, it's only certain they were operational and may have started earlier.

cheebacheebakid
is it possible the presses from the London plant that opened in Montreal in 75 are the ones at Cinram in Montreal?

Possible, but the London presses have a unique pressing ring and their 12" records always use the slightly-smaller labels normally seen on 7" releases. Whereas all the earlier Cinram records I've got match the RCA Smiths Falls pressing ring and have standard size LP labels.

cheebacheebakid
Do label images in this search have similar typesteeting:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search/?type=all&label=London&format=7%22&country=Canada&year=1975

Sorry, missed that one. No, those are all London pressings for sure.

brunorepublic
Possible, but the London presses have a unique pressing ring and their 12" records always use the slightly-smaller labels normally seen on 7" releases.

Yes, definitely for the original London plant but not sure that's the same for the 2nd plant that opened in Montreal in 75. They were totally different presses brought over from the UK.

cheebacheebakid
Yes, definitely for the original London plant but not sure that's the same for the 2nd plant that opened in Montreal in 75. They were totally different presses brought over from the UK.

I've got loads of London and London-pressed releases and they all have those smaller labels. They also pressed for PolyGram; you can find Polydor and Casablanca LPs/12" singles made by them which use the rather different 7" label designs.

brunorepublic
Sorry, missed that one. No, those are all London pressings for sure.

Sorry, I lied. I've always thought these were London pressings, but I could be mistaken here. The typesetting isn't the same; maybe these were done just before the London plant opened up?

brunorepublic
I still think "I" refers to a different company entirely, and Impact seems the most likely one.

I pulled a few "I" coded records and the pressing ring matches the Keel ring exactly (though the 2.75" ring is not a super unique ring) and though type-setting is not my forte, seems similar:

Keel pressings from mid/late 70s
https://img.discogs.sie.com/wpsqjp9j0szPrKlRIyW1AZyvhl4=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-13522693-1555855553-7719.jpeg.jpg

https://img.discogs.sie.com/3U3dEBRt-WK0zObiF2p8z0in1EE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3328840-1346210051-2224.jpeg.jpg

https://img.discogs.sie.com/-fZNtzZ58dXSSG7sM1ZSK8gyqeU=/fit-in/599x601/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/L-269345-1555859605-8474.jpeg.jpg

"I" pressings from early 1980s:
https://img.discogs.sie.com/4OPNDDlNxSlC3VP26Z8LNKUpBSY=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12264492-1531725423-9392.jpeg.jpg

https://img.discogs.sie.com/NKGZwWRKeQ9BjaH3iiwNJKamKKY=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-577909-1492303889-2540.jpeg.jpg

https://img.discogs.sie.com/udQZ1MW2jsZgWFOoF0bylPQA_ro=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6510011-1420910101-9236.jpeg.jpg

I am more sure than ever Impact Records Mfg. Co. of Canada took over Keel's operations in Ajax post-Pickwick bankruptcy filing (the only word changed in the corporate name was "Keel" to "Impact") and the "I" code used by WEA is for Impact.

I'm not an expert on typesetting either, but the fonts look the same to me.

Same pressing ring, but I don't see any similarity with the typesetting though.

The fonts on these two look the same to me.
A. https://img.discogs.sie.com/3U3dEBRt-WK0zObiF2p8z0in1EE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3328840-1346210051-2224.jpeg.jpg

B. https://img.discogs.sie.com/udQZ1MW2jsZgWFOoF0bylPQA_ro=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-6510011-1420910101-9236.jpeg.jpg

Perhaps sebfact could shed some light.

Madturtle3
The fonts on these two look the same to me.

The ℗ is slightly different, note the P's position inside the circle. Also the 5's in the track durations are also different, the top bar on the J. Geils example is the full width of the digit and about 3/4 the width of the digit on the Turner example.

Maybe W.B. can be of assistance and check a few of the examples if so inclined.

brunorepublic
Same pressing ring, but I don't see any similarity with the typesetting though.

The Beatles LP's typesetting dated to the 1960's, thus would have been different for sure. Ditto for the Sire Talking Heads LP which label fonts came from Capitol Records Pressing Plant, Los Angeles. But it would make sense 'I' stood for Impact, and they would have taken over the Canadian Keel operations.

Thank for dropping in, W.B. So it sounds like some of the typesetting varied at Keel and is not a slam dunk.

A brief timeline from the Statistics Canada / Industry Canada yearly reports:
- Keel Records Mfg. Co. of Canada in Ajax last report as a manufacturer was 1978 (link to PDF)
- Impact Records Mfg. Co. of Canada in Ajax first report as a manufacturer in 1979 (link to PDF)
- Impact Records Mfg. Co. of Canada in Ajax reported ceasing operations in October 1982 (link to PDF)

So far the few "I" plant codes on WEA labels I can find on hand are all on releases from 1979-1981. I'll have to dig some more but in the meantime I've started a list to add releases with the I code at https://www.discogs.sie.com/lists/WEA-Code-I/517819