Tom Hooker: Mass edit of alias needed or is it ANV?

This one is quite tricky:

Hooker Thomas Beecher.

Is it alias or ANV? Both names can be extracted from the full name. Anyway, on releases credited e.g. by "H. T. Beecher", it is strange to read "Tom Hooker" as PAN and also it is a source for future errors, as the connection between Hooker and Beecher is not clear at the first glance, as he rarely uses his full name.

By RSG §2.5.3 and RSG §2.5.4 I would rather use it as an alias.
If so, there would be a mass edit necessary, as around 70 releases do use the name as ANV.

He is mentioned as just Beecher on at least one release, and since Beecher would not be an ANV of Tom Hooker, alias including Beecher would seem the correct thing to have here.

jansenENjanssen
He is mentioned as just Beecher on at least one release, and since Beecher would not be an ANV of Tom Hooker, alias including Beecher would seem the correct thing to have here.

This is my opinion, too. Seems it was entered incorrect more than 70 times. I linked the alias just some minutes ago...

Starting the edit. All steps will be documented here, depending on ANV

Edit text:

"Mass edit: Beecher ANVs of Hooker Thomas Beecher, as Beecher is not an ANV of Tom Hooker.
Corresponding forum thread: https://www.discogs.sie.com/forum/thread/725195"

First 11 entries of ANV "Beecher" shifted from "Tom Hooker" to "Beecher Thomas Hooker"

- 1 entry for ANV "Hooker, T.H." shifted
- 1 entry for ANV "Beeker" shifted

- 1 entry for ANV "H. H. Beecher" shifted
- 1 entry for ANV "H. T. Beecher" shifted
- 42 appearances of ANV "H. T. Beecher" shifted (credits)
- Added image from alias

- 2 entries for ANV "H. T.Beecher" shifted
- 3 entries for ANV "H. Thomas Baecker" shifted
- 4 entries for H. Thomas Beecher" shifted

- 2 entries of ANV "H.Thomas Beecker" shifted
- 14 entries of ANV "H. Thomas Beecer" shifted

To be continued later this day...

- 1 entry for ANV "H.T. Beecher" shifted
- 1 entry for ANV "H. Thomas Beecher" shifted again, as DanyLeDog reverted my edits again
- 3 entries for H.T. Beecher" shifted

- 46 credit entries for ANV "H.T. Beecher" shifted

It's a lot of work actually, I will continue later or tomorrow...

I've heard of this thread by some changes in a couple of releases submitted by me.

I just want to say that I've never seen "Hooker Thomas Beecher" written that way, and this is a pure invention of yours.

So, I think that "Hooker Thomas Beecher" shouldn't be used.

"H.T. Beecher" is an alias of Tom Hooker, and this is perfectly correct.

Thanks for the reply.
Now, I think there is a misunderstanding, which is obviously basing on the way, those both phrases ANV and alias are defined in Discogs, as I think you are right, but your conclusions do not match the way, the database is ruled out.

Kaytron
"H.T. Beecher" is an alias of Tom Hooker, and this is perfectly correct.

This is exactly, what this edit is all about.
But this alias is used as an ANV in hundreds of cases in the database and it is wrong to use an alias as an ANV.
If it is an alias, it has to be used as an alias. So the current state is not perfectly correct, but entirely incorrect

Kaytron
I just want to say that I've never seen "Hooker Thomas Beecher" written that way

See here for a complete use of the name:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/artist/41650-Tom-Hooker?filter_anv=1&anv=Thomas+Beecher+Hooker

- The entry without abbreviation is used 10 times in database
- The entry with abbreviated first names is used more than 100 times in the database

Kaytron
So, I think that "Hooker Thomas Beecher" shouldn't be used.

Then, you didn't put the guidelines into consideration so far. Just out of practical use: When comparing "Tom Hooker " and for instance "H.T. Beecher", how can you connect these both. This is like comparing apples and oranges.

Edit: Just for information: Only ANVs pointing on Beecher are changed. All ANVs, which are connected to Tom Hooker will not be changed

Kaytron
this is a pure invention of yours.

Yes, as the current state in database, using the alias "Hooker Thomas Beecher" as an ANV for "Tom Hooker" is a violation against RSG §2.5.2, RSG §2.5.3, RSG §2.5.4 and from the FAQ:
"Q - Does ANV replace Aliases?

A - No, aliases remain as a way of identifying totally different names used by an artist."

And this intervention based on this thread, which is active already since 29 days on an issue, which is without doubt an incorrect state, as we do not do similar things on all other artists in the database, as we have appropriate rules here (see above)

Sincerely

- 1 entry fixed for ANV T. H. Beecher

- 17 entries fixed for ANV T. H. Beecher

- 15 entries fixed for ANV T.H. Beecher

- 9 entries fixed for Th. H. Beecher

- 1 entry fixed for ANV "Thomas Hooker Beecker"
- 1 entry fixed for ANV "Thomas Beecker"
- 2 entries fixed for Thomas Hooker Beecher"

- 3 entries fixed for ANV T. Hooker Beecher

Finished fixing

181 entries were fixed, all with "Beecher" as last name.

Not fixed were instances of Tom Hooker ending with Hooker:
Beecher-Hooker
Thomas
H. T. Hooker
Hoocker
Hooker
Hooker T.
Hooker, Tom
T. B. Hooker
T. Beecher Hooker
T. H. Hooker
T. Hooker
T. Hookers
T. Hooler
T.Beecher Hooker
T.H.
T.Hooker
T.m Hooker
Th. B. Hooker
Th. Beecher Hooker
Thomas Baker Hooker
Thomas Beecher Hooker
Thomas Hoock
Thomas Hooker
Tom
Tom B. Hooker

398 entries are now regularly pointing to Tom Hooker
80 entries are now pointing to "Hooker Thomas Beecher", all of them are songwriting credits

Looks good, Nice work!

thanks for this
maybe a good idea to get more than one opinion before starting a mass edit that may not be clear to every (note that i agree with your proposals)

good idea to explain the Alias use in the Profile, too

Loanesloan
maybe a good idea to get more than one opinion before starting a mass edit that may not be clear to every

protocol says to wait two days. even if nobody s in, it's ok to start. as it was gradually done people had enough time to in here. which they didn't. so looks good to me

i know, that's fine with me, but could have maybe avoided some Edits that got reverted...

I usually place link to the thread and announce my intentions in the Profile history and in some Releases - this hasn't been done here https://www.discogs.sie.com/artist/4741498-Hooker-Thomas-Beecher/history#latest
no contributor was invited, either

again: i don't contest this - just a hint to get some more opinions...

Hello and thanks for the !

Loanesloan
maybe a good idea to get more than one opinion before starting a mass edit

I agree, but nobody seemed to have interest in this topic. I waited for 28 days now...a bit information more wouldn't have been a damage. This is accepted.

velove
protocol says to wait two days.

Exactly this!... and it was really an effort of two days...I got one objection.

Maybe it is worth to mention, that I usually communicate more, if it is just to unify dupe entries. But this edit was based in a clear violation of the guidelines and I really wonder, why it made its way to grow to 180 wrong entries, as it deals with a basic rule in Discogs, the principle of ANV and alias. The other way around would be to cast 188 NMiC-votes and get many new friends ;)

Loanesloan
good idea to explain the Alias use in the Profile, too

I will take a look there in a moment. Maybe to write some bold info on top of the profile...

Loanesloan
no contributor was invited, either

This point is also acceptable as point to work on in future (I missed that, but I will invite anyway). As most objections are still dealing with the principle of the edit, which is clear in my opinion.

So let's see how the issue will continue. Thanks for these replies anyway
(The two other mass edits I made this weekend were with invitation, but didn't yield a reaction anyway. One I made now after 2 months, the other after six weeks of non- plus bumping. My experience says. that there are rarely replies before, but more often after edit).

Oliver_Ostblock
I really wonder, why it made its way to grow to 180 wrong entries, as it deals with a basic rule in Discogs, the principle of ANV and alias.

And many of those involved in the incorrect edits being 'experienced'. This happens so much, wish would just make that little bit of an extra effort to check everything properly on releases they edit. These mistakes should not happen on such a scale.

Tom Hooker got a note about both variants. Let me know, what you think about it.
Invitation for contributors on Tom Hooker profile was cast in submission notes.

There was no further inside the subs or in my messages, so it looks fine for the moment.

Those big mass edits let me always feel uncomfortable, but anyway, someone has to do them.
That makes us stronger :)

jansenENjanssen
These mistakes should not happen on such a scale.

Problem is, the more it gets 'common', the more it is considered to be correct, even if in this case, a fundamental rule was broken. And of course your feeling is then usually, am I wrong or the 188 others.

You could see, how it made its way by "Copy from draft"- errors and I think, I even found one sub, where it all started.
But if you look at it...

How can you ANV T.H. Beecher with Tom Hooker
It is simply not reproducible. I initially thought, this is a joke or a bug...