Main Artist Credit on Musical Cast release: Various or Composers?

Hi everyone,

I'd like to get your input on a disagreement about the main artist credit for Elton John, Tim Rice - Disneys Der König Der Löwen (Das Broadway Musical Im Hamburger Hafen) and the associated Master Release. This has been listed under "Various" for a long time, over a decade, with regular contributions and updates from experienced s. No one raised concerns about the artist field until now, so I thought it would be best to open this up for discussion.

The suggestion was made to replace "Various" with the composer and lyricist, based on the idea that they should always count as the principal artists on theatrical works like this. I understand where that argument is coming from, but I'm not convinced it's the right move here, especially considering the Discogs guidelines.

The front cover of the release does name the composer and lyricist, but it also gives Julie Taymor, the director, just as much prominence. If we use visibility on the cover as the basis for crediting someone as a main artist, then she would need to be included too. That raises the question of where to draw the line, and in my view, it s the continued use of "Various." The release credits multiple contributors and doesn’t clearly present any of them as the main artist in the Discogs sense.

Also, guideline 2.3.1 is pretty clear that "Various" is appropriate when no one is billed as the main artist, which seems to fit this case. And while it’s true that guideline 2.2.3 allows multiple names to be listed as main artist, it also requires that the release shows a clear intent to present those people as the primary artists. I don’t see that intent here.

Rather than making individual interpretations, I think we should stay close to how the release actually presents itself. If there’s a strong feeling that a change is needed, I’m open to it, but I’d really like to hear what others think first so we can try to reach some consensus.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Perhaps a ”Cast” credit?

RSG §2.9.1. Sometimes, a release will credit a group of people or performers involved in the release, such as Chorus, Choir, Orchestra, Ensemble, Cast, Company, etc., but not give them a proper artist name. When entering such vague groups, a full artist name of the group should, if possible, be taken from the title of the release / film / show / etc. and added to the front of the group. For example, the Chorus from the musical Paint Your Wagon should be credited like this:

"Paint Your Wagon" Chorus

When entering the details on the release, it is acceptable to use the ANV function to display the original performer credit, so for example it can be like this:

"Paint Your Wagon" Chorus ANV Chorus

Since an artist is created by doing this, the original submitter of the release should try to add at least a brief description of the group in the Artist Profile. For example, for the above example, this would be an acceptable description: "An unidentified group of chorus singers that appear in the "Paint Your Wagon" movie and subsequent soundtrack recordings."

This method should not be used when the group is used in conjunction with a named artist, this should be added as one artist, for example Count Basie And His Orchestra.

Silvermo
Perhaps a ”Cast” credit?

"König Der Löwen" German Cast

So the suggested approach is to interpret the "Disneys Der König der Löwen" or "Der König der Löwen" not only as the title but the artist in the sense that it is a representation of the cast for this release. Meaning "König Der Löwen" German Cast plus applicable ANV. Correct?

Mop66
Meaning "König Der Löwen" German Cast plus applicable ANV. Correct?

Yes, that's what I would use.

Don’tvreally know if the word German should be part of the PAN (havent checked if it appears that way on any releases, but if it don’t I don’t think we should specify country on ”cast” credits.

Silvermo
Don’tvreally know if the word German should be part of the PAN (havent checked if it appears that way on any releases, but if it don’t I don’t think we should specify country on ”cast” credits.

I think it's better, because otherwise we could potentially have:
"König Der Löwen" Cast > for the german cast
"König Der Löwen" Cast (2) > for the austrian cast
"König Der Löwen" Cast (3) > for the swiss cast
etc.

"König Der Löwen" German Cast
"König Der Löwen" Austrian Cast
"König Der Löwen" Swiss Cast
etc
is better.

Besides, it is in the database like this already many times, for example:
https://www.discogs.sie.com/search?q=we+will+rock+you+cast&type=artist

Mop66
main artist credit for Elton John, Tim Rice - Disneys Der König Der Löwen (Das Broadway Musical Im Hamburger Hafen)

Just go by how the release presents it, as we always do:
Elton John & Tim Rice, Julie Taymor
Three names presented in bold

The names listed as "Additional" rule out themself as "Main" artist ("Additional" and "Main" are conflicting ).

The back of the booklet, presenting more credits, again puts the 3 same names in bold, clearly indicating they play a major role in this recording.

The cast is not credited, neither do we have a situation, where we lack any explicit credit, and should either fall back to a placeholder (such as Various), or a situation where RSG §2.9.1. applies for the Main Artist of the releases. There isn't a generic name that actually refers to a specific group on the release as described in that guideline.

I don't think there is any need to make this a complex case, neither is there a need to fall back to Various or any similar placeholder credit.
There is no need to force the cast as main artist. It has been declared multiple times the main artists doesn't need to be a performing role. That would only be a valid solution if there really wasn't anyone else presented as main artist, or if the cast was actually presented in some form as main artist, but with a generic name. In the latter case, presenting the case would still ask to include the 3 names in bold as main artist anyway.

Thanks so much this far. Bumping it up for more .

Dr.SultanAszazin
Just go by how the release presents it, as we always do:
Elton John & Tim Rice, Julie Taymor
Three names presented in bold

+1 - no need to make up a cast credit when there's none on the front cover (as in, it doesn't say anything like "Original Hamburg Cast" as far as I'm aware)

Dr.SultanAszazin
the main artists doesn't need to be a performing role

I think that goes without saying.

Anyway, I stand corrected. Main artists are the bolded names on front

Dr.SultanAszazin
Elton John & Tim Rice, Julie Taymor

How do we proceed with soundtrack releases which have the film poster on the front cover with only the film director printed large and bold? Do filmmakers qualify as main artists even if not involved in the music? (serious question)

MartinR
Do filmmakers qualify as main artists even if not involved in the music?

There should be a topic somewhere involving a discussion about this.
I don't if there was a straight-forward conclusion.

I think it might be something to handle case by case, as context might matter a lot.

Imo, a film director should not be ruled out as a main artist, in case the release presents it in such a way.
But, this doesn't mean we should limit ourself in determining the main artist by just looking at the name on the front cover. A deeper look in the release might present a specific musician/composer as the main artist for the musical part. Some soundtracks might be perfectly happy with "Various". In other cases, the director might be involved very directly with the music (as a producer/supervisor), where it would make sense to enter the director as main artist.
And then there is the case of DVD/Bluray releases which include a separate soundtrack CD, in which case the cover is most probably for the movie, while the Discogs entry ideally puts the focus on the CD part.

I'd sure not rule out using certain external resources to determine the most proper main artist in some cases, where the movie poster is used as cover for an OST release. In such cases, imo, it's common sense not to blindly apply the "main artist = as presented on cover" general guidance. Guidelines which are not written with a specific exceptional situation in mind, shouldn't be applied rigidly on these specific situations.

But that's my onion.

JeroenG8
"König Der Löwen" German Cast
"König Der Löwen" Austrian Cast
"König Der Löwen" Swiss Cast
etc
is better

Not if they don’t follow guidelines. And adding country that don’t exist on a release to a PAN don’t.

Edit: just as we don’t add country to labels or other artists to tell them apart /edit

JeroenG8
Besides, it is in the database like this already many times

Just because something is in the database don’t make it correct.

"König Der Löwen" German Cast

anvs on cast profiles are imo often a mess, such as on this German page with "Original Hamburg Ensemble" and the endless-anv'd "Company" (appearing on too much other cast profiles)

Silvermo
JeroenG8"König Der Löwen" German Cast
"König Der Löwen" Austrian Cast
"König Der Löwen" Swiss Cast
etc
is better

Not if they don’t follow guidelines. And adding country that don’t exist on a release to a PAN don’t.

Edit: just as we don’t add country to labels or other artists to tell them apart /edit

JeroenG8Besides, it is in the database like this already many times

Just because something is in the database don’t make it correct.

Actually, we DO add cities to studios if there are more studios with the same name and this is preferred by the guidelines. You could consider casts from the same musical in different countries similarly.